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Old 12-29-2011, 03:30 PM   #41
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This is a great start, but let's also make "debt to society" really mean

something. A night at the state Hilton-45$
Orange Jumpsuit-----------138$
Sneakers-------------------50$
3 squares a day at 15$ per--45$
etc.,etc, etc, charge for everything

Give them a real "debt to society", then when they

"pay their debt to society" the action will have significant meaning

in a situation they'll surely not want to repeat.
you and i are on the same page here, if they break the law, you go to prison, you work from sun-up to sundown and serve the time you received. make prison an undesireable place to want to return to. a ten year sentence of howing crops everyday in the hot sun and clearing brush in the rain and cold could provide a powerful deterrent to those who break the law.
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:32 PM   #42
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I wasn’t making any correlation. The OP wanted to know about crimes committed by CCW holders and I was just passing on what I found.

As far as correlation between guns and violence goes:
Among states without restrictive firearm regulations;
New Hampshire has the lowest gun violence rates per 100k at 0.43.
Louisiana is the highest with 10.13.

Among states with restrictive firearms regulation;
California has the fourth highest gun violence rate at 4.82.
Hawaii has the third lowest with 0.54, right after NH & VT.

(The US average is 3.6 per 100k.)

Personally I think there is a higher correlation between gun violence and population density regardless of the level of regulation.
I wasn't infering that you were making any correlation. I was just opining that the media will skew any statistic regardless of how small to cast CCW holders, but gun owners in general, in a bad light. And I agree that there is a higher correlation between gun violence and population density.
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Old 12-29-2011, 04:28 PM   #43
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I wasn't infering that you were making any correlation. I was just opining that the media will skew any statistic regardless of how small to cast CCW holders, but gun owners in general, in a bad light. And I agree that there is a higher correlation between gun violence and population density.
there are crimes commited by people who obtained firearms legally. even we as gunowners have to admit this does happen from time to time. it has happened before and will happen again. the media will misrepresent the facts and focus on the few rather than the majority of gunowners, to slant the story to their advantage. criminals don't for the most part obtain their firearms legally. they are stolen or traded for. the media will try to paint any and all gunowners as inbred rednecks or militants to try and futher the opinion to the masses. do we penilize the majority or the actions of the few? if so, then we need to ban automobiles, simply because there are drivers who drink and drive, get DWI's and kill people when driving intoxicated. what are the statistics of DWI arrests vs. number of licensed drivers? that is a number i would like to see. lets outlaw computers and the internet, because of the amount of cybercrime commited by a few. and the list could go on and on. but it's easy for them the media to attack gunowners, because they think guns are evil and in their way of thinking, eliminating guns would eliminate evil and evil people. even if guns had never been invented, and every gun in the world disappeared right now, crime would still exist, because there are people who have evil in their hearts to do bad deeds to other people. eliminating guns, would only remove one method for them to do their evil deeds.
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Old 12-30-2011, 02:44 PM   #44
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there are crimes commited by people who obtained firearms legally. even we as gunowners have to admit this does happen from time to time. it has happened before and will happen again. the media will misrepresent the facts and focus on the few rather than the majority of gunowners, to slant the story to their advantage. criminals don't for the most part obtain their firearms legally. they are stolen or traded for. the media will try to paint any and all gunowners as inbred rednecks or militants to try and futher the opinion to the masses. do we penilize the majority or the actions of the few? if so, then we need to ban automobiles, simply because there are drivers who drink and drive, get DWI's and kill people when driving intoxicated. what are the statistics of DWI arrests vs. number of licensed drivers? that is a number i would like to see. lets outlaw computers and the internet, because of the amount of cybercrime commited by a few. and the list could go on and on. but it's easy for them the media to attack gunowners, because they think guns are evil and in their way of thinking, eliminating guns would eliminate evil and evil people. even if guns had never been invented, and every gun in the world disappeared right now, crime would still exist, because there are people who have evil in their hearts to do bad deeds to other people. eliminating guns, would only remove one method for them to do their evil deeds.
The real question here sir, is:

Do we really want to throw away our rich gun culture, because of

a few bad apples, and some cowardly, gun hating pantywaists?



Because this is what we're meekly accepting if we can't get more

gun owners actively involved.

Guns have made us what we are today. The UN,

and everyone associated with us, has benefited

directly from this very culture. If there is a problem in the world,

we don't ship out our soldiers equipped with lame-O PC

democrats and opinions, they have rifles made by the finest armories in

the world. Mexico found out what it's like to try to invade

the U.S. with an armed populace. No other country has

ever tried because armed citizens like you and me would

go to no end to defend our homeland.

Sure, there's going to be an occasional accident. Yes,

criminals will have guns, what do you expect, they constantly

break the law.
But crime is down, and as little as they

like to admit it, LEOs are safer because of CCW holders.
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:12 PM   #45
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wolf, i agree with you 100%. but there will always be a few bad apples, that is just a fact of life that can't be gotten around. the media and the politicians will always capitalize on small isolated incedents where gunowners are involved. gun control laws are not the answer IMO either. all that does is restrict gun ownership to the legal and law abiding citizen.

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Old 12-31-2011, 06:00 PM   #46
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OK axxe,

Try 45% of 311,800,000, the current American population census.

That's 140,310,000 American gun owners.

NRA enrollment? A paltry 6 million. (Strangely enough, also the

approximate number of CCW permit holders in

my home state, alone, as we speak.)

That's @ 4.27% of the TOTAL gun owning populace.

The answer lays before us, and it's obvious to the most

casual observer. Let's wake 'em up, and get 'em involved.

Otherwise, a very small amount of nervous nellies who are

afraid of everything from the dark to toothpaste residue

are going to run our lives for us, and confiscate our guns...

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Old 12-31-2011, 07:37 PM   #47
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It would be interesting to find out how may EX members the NRA has. Sometimes I think the NRA is their own worst enemy. I realize that they need money to do the things they do for us, but the constant duns for more money is aggravating. The last thing a person needs, after sending them money for a worthy cause, is to get a request a month later for more money for yet a different project.

In fact, my wife renewed our memberships, once, on-line with a credit card. Our next credit card statement had a $50 charge on it, in addition to the memberships, that we didn't know anything about. When she contacted them about it, she was told that was taken as a donation!! She told them we didn't authorize it, but rather than issue a credit they gave her two more years on her membership. She hasn't renewed since then. I have to keep my membership in order to maintain my club membership where I shoot. Otherwise, there would be two ex members in this household. Needless to say, now I mail my membership fee in.

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Old 01-01-2012, 09:36 AM   #48
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It would be interesting to find out how may EX members the NRA has. Sometimes I think the NRA is their own worst enemy. I realize that they need money to do the things they do for us, but the constant duns for more money is aggravating. The last thing a person needs, after sending them money for a worthy cause, is to get a request a month later for more money for yet a different project.

In fact, my wife renewed our memberships, once, on-line with a credit card. Our next credit card statement had a $50 charge on it, in addition to the memberships, that we didn't know anything about. When she contacted them about it, she was told that was taken as a donation!! She told them we didn't authorize it, but rather than issue a credit they gave her two more years on her membership. She hasn't renewed since then. I have to keep my membership in order to maintain my club membership where I shoot. Otherwise, there would be two ex members in this household. Needless to say, now I mail my membership fee in.
I must agree, unfortunately, the NRA, many times, is it's own worst enemy.

There's GOA, SAF, JFPO, for different national organizations.

Or right here, there's G.O.F.F.A., free.
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