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Old 04-30-2009, 04:39 PM   #21
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I'd like to see where you get your stastics. Also the time to expire is not noted in those stastics-you will die from 1 shot from a poisoned dart but it takes a while, that won't stop you from all further acts of aggression AT THAT TIME until later. The time to stop is a MAJOR factor, perhaps the most important. A 9mm bullet MAY expand but a .45 bullet sure won't shrink.
You apparently misunderstand the definition of the word "stop," especially in the sense of firearms shootings, and confused it with "kill." To physicically incapacitate a human almost guarantees death will quickly follow (except in cases like shots to the lower spine, or rare cases where a head shot might not kill the person, but knocks them out temporarily). However, there are many cases where some attackers will almost instinctively "give up" (read; collapse onto the ground) when shot, even if the shot would not be fatal or truely detrimental to their temporary physical abilities (such as a shot to the shoulder or stomach area). These are also factored into "stop" statistics, and are not quite as dependent on caliber as much as individual psychie and the perceived power of the shot. For example, an attacker might perceive a .357 snub nose as more powerful (due to more flash and bang) than a suppressed 1911, and react accordingly, even if the .357 was using with FMJ plinking ammo and the 1911 had high-end 230HPs (making the 1911 still technically much more damaging). Of course, it would be silly to count on the BG fainting when you shoot him anywhere in the torso, which even further supports only relying on shot placement to keep you safe.

Here you go:
Handloads.Com - Stopping Power

Either way, no bullet is magical. Shot placement is BY FAR the biggest factor in stopping a threat with a handgun. Not that this really sells any one caliber over another, but everyone should know that the hunk of metal in one's holster isn't going to do jack unless the user puts that little marble-sized peace of lead exactly where it needs to go.

Even look at the statistics of larger rifle cartridges. The .308win still, statistically, only has a 98% chance of a "one shot stop," only 2% higher than a .45. This only further supports there is a still a chance the shot will fail to stop the threat, which further stresses the necessity to place the shots well and to be prepared to follow up (which goes back to practicing and being able to put your bulets where you need them as quickly as possible).

BTW, before anyone brings it up, military references to the "stopping power" of the 9mm are completely moot. They cannot use expanding ammunition, which is exactly what the 9mm must use to be as effective as it can be. It is true that a 9mm may not expand (HIGHLY unlikely with decent ammo in a "standard" shooting without odd barriers, but Ill lend that it is still possible), but if your shots are good, it won't matter much anyways, given we are talking about a few tenths of an inch extra to damage vital circulatory or nervous organs.
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Old 04-30-2009, 06:28 PM   #22
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I assure you I'm NOT confusing anything! As an actual survivor of justified deadly force, and the following justification proofs, I most assuredly know the difference between stopping & killing. How many ACTUAL deadly force shootouts have YOU been in? The unfortunate thing is it's almost impossible to stop without being willing & able to kill. You shoot to stop all further aggression-that usually ends in death of assailant-not always. The 1 shot stops you (and I) refer to means instant incapacitation. The statistic page you referred me to had a BEST % of 83% for just 1 bullet. The simple facts of the matter is you CANNOT depend on expansion every single time. The larger the bullet diameter, with all other factors being fairly equal, the larger, heavier bullet with the most frontal area will win every time. I'm not going to fall for the 9mm vs .45 argument, just stating MY opinion.
http://terra.gg.utah.edu/guns/energy.pdf

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Old 04-30-2009, 06:52 PM   #23
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I assure you I'm NOT confusing anything! As an actual survivor of justified deadly force, and the following justification proofs, I most assuredly know the difference between stopping & killing. How many ACTUAL deadly force shootouts have YOU been in?
Your first paragraph was talking about taking time to die and is not what the term "stop" entails. The definition of "stop" used in these studies was that the attacker immediately discontinue his or her threatening actions, and does not run more than 10 feet.

And what does having been involved in a shooting have to do with this?

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The statistic page you referred me to had a BEST % of 83% for just 1 bullet.
9 mm +P+ Stopping Power

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The simple facts of the matter is you CANNOT depend on expansion every single time. The larger the bullet diameter, with all other factors being fairly equal, the larger, heavier bullet with the most frontal area will win every time. just stating MY opinion.
True. However, one also CANNOT count on a .1" difference to guarantee survival or not. With the .45, the wound is like shoving a .75"-diameter rod (or .45" without expansion) through an attacker, and with the 9mm, its like doing the same but with a .7" rod (or .35" without expansion). Would you really expect that tiny bit of difference to reliably make or break the fight? Would you not think that the aim with that rod would be FAR FAR more important than the diameter?

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I've read that before, and I didn't argue against it. Hell, that's why I keep 147gr bullets in my 9mm as opposed to 115gr (but that is just for more penetration with the same expansion, as seen in ballistics tests). But once again, with handguns, the ONLY factors are wound channel width and depth. The actual momentum of the bullet influences these factors, but themselves are not large enough to cause any damage on their own.
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Old 04-30-2009, 09:21 PM   #24
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Lindenwood makes a good argument.

I think the main point of everything is a 9mm WILL drop an attacker. There is a reason that the 9mm is the most popular sidearm round in the world today. It is effective. The .45 is also effective.

Honestly, it's a waste of time to get into a big argument over which round will work the best. It doesn't really matter which round you use, as long as you put them center of mass, they will work.

I really like the 9mm because of how effective it is, and also because it's very popular, cheap to purchase, and commonplace. I also like the .45 ACP because I do like the ballistics of the round. Both will drop an assailant if you do your part. The only problem is that there's a funny thing called Murphy's Law that tends to play itself out at the worst moments.

Example: There was a situation that happened (article in a Gun magazine) about a robber that went to rob a store (pawn shop, I believe???). The owner walked out with a .357 magnum revolver (4 inch barrel if I'm not mistaken) and put all 6 rounds directly into the robbers chest. These were 6 defensive rounds (hollowpoints - not sure of the weight). The robber didn't budge. In fact the robber attempted to point and fire his weapon, but he was having some issues with it (the robber was completely high off of some drug). The owner maganed to reload, and slam 6 more .357 rounds into the robbers chest. Again, no reaction. Amazingly, the owner was able to load a final 6 rounds, and with those rounds, the robber finally dropped to the ground, dead. The blood from the robber actually was slightly green due to the amount of drugs he took before the robbery.

That's just an example of how things can get weird during a shootout. On the flip side, there have been instances where one single shot from a .25 automatic has stopped an assailant in his tracks. Ballistics is a weird thing, and I think people pay way too much attention to them sometimes. Ballistics are important, but they aren't everything. People need to worry more about getting their shots on the mark every single time from every concievable position.

stalkingbear posted:

Quote:
How many ACTUAL deadly force shootouts have YOU been in?
Honestly, I can't see where that would have any bearing in this conversation......
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Old 04-30-2009, 09:46 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT-MILLER View Post
Lindenwood makes a good argument.

I think the main point of everything is a 9mm WILL drop an attacker. There is a reason that the 9mm is the most popular sidearm round in the world today. It is effective. The .45 is also effective.

Honestly, it's a waste of time to get into a big argument over which round will work the best. It doesn't really matter which round you use, as long as you put them center of mass, they will work.

I really like the 9mm because of how effective it is, and also because it's very popular, cheap to purchase, and commonplace. I also like the .45 ACP because I do like the ballistics of the round. Both will drop an assailant if you do your part. The only problem is that there's a funny thing called Murphy's Law that tends to play itself out at the worst moments.

Example: There was a situation that happened (article in a Gun magazine) about a robber that went to rob a store (pawn shop, I believe???). The owner walked out with a .357 magnum revolver (4 inch barrel if I'm not mistaken) and put all 6 rounds directly into the robbers chest. These were 6 defensive rounds (hollowpoints - not sure of the weight). The robber didn't budge. In fact the robber attempted to point and fire his weapon, but he was having some issues with it (the robber was completely high off of some drug). The owner maganed to reload, and slam 6 more .357 rounds into the robbers chest. Again, no reaction. Amazingly, the owner was able to load a final 6 rounds, and with those rounds, the robber finally dropped to the ground, dead. The blood from the robber actually was slightly green due to the amount of drugs he took before the robbery.

That's just an example of how things can get weird during a shootout. On the flip side, there have been instances where one single shot from a .25 automatic has stopped an assailant in his tracks. Ballistics is a weird thing, and I think people pay way too much attention to them sometimes. Ballistics are important, but they aren't everything. People need to worry more about getting their shots on the mark every single time from every concievable position.

stalkingbear posted:
Honestly, I can't see where that would have any bearing in this conversation......

Hey Sarge, can you give us a link to that story? If it wasn't you posting it I'd be waving the BS flag right now.
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Old 04-30-2009, 10:02 PM   #26
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I'll try to find it online.

It was in an issue of Handguns magazine. I'll post it once I find it.

There is weirder things that has happened out there.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/t/toothmiracle.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,451932,00.html

http://daddybones.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/a-woman-was-shot-point-blank-in-the-forehead-and-lived/

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Old 05-01-2009, 01:13 AM   #27
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Default Love 9mm

Personal favorites are Sig P226 (BW edition) and a well worn Glock 19, so your collection is great. Cannot imagine range time without my 9MM's.

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Old 05-01-2009, 01:19 AM   #28
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love my glock 19, unfortunately (reasonably priced) 9mm is scarce in my area. I only have 4 boxes in the reserve. Its hard to pay $15+ for something that should only cost $9.

If I ever find some primers I am going to start reloading. Maybe I should just put some on backorder and wait.

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Old 05-01-2009, 01:30 AM   #29
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Thank you.

BTW, I don't mean to start any arguments. I just don't want some prospective handgun owner to read things implying the .45 is some all-powerful round, go buy a 1911, put 50 rounds through it, and think they are instaly safe from any threat on God's earth. None of the common "combat" auto calibers are vastly more effective than another, and to believe so, and behave accordingly, will only put one at unnecessary risk to harm.

And sucks. I have like 550 empty 9mm cases, but no more primers. I only have I think twenty-three 9mm left, and they are only FMJ rounds...

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Old 05-01-2009, 06:12 AM   #30
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Since everybody else is showing love towards the 9x19mm Luger Parabellum, I guess I should spread around some love as well.

I am sure Mark F will love me for this.

Here is my first love.

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