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Old 12-11-2012, 02:12 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by bluez View Post
I am going to add another 2 cents, though technically it isnt answering the OP's question:
The current fad with high capacities is just a fad, because with modenr autoloaders we <can>.

Hollywood has driven a lot of this ,where the main characters and sometimes even teenage girls, shoot a dozen attackers with head shots while running w/ autoloaders.

Heck, I couldnt do that and I spend 400 dollars a month on ammo.

Also lots of ammo adds weight..

back when I carried a Glock 19, I would do so with only 4 rounds in it.
yes you heard me right. Why?

Weight .....and a situation that needs more rounds is so rare for all intents and purposes it doesnt exist.

Remember we are not Police or military that SEEKS OUT trouble.
as a civilian self defender you have a completely different requirements set.
It's a pretty long running fad. Predating the military adoption of the Beretta M9.

4-6 rounds is great if you don't miss under stress, your attacker stops after a couple weak shots from a pistol, and you can guarantee taht the only situation you could ever pssible find yourself in would include only one attacker where you had no interfering barriers, clothing, and only had head on shots to take. Also hope that your ammo performs just like it does on bare gellatin.

Hollywood has also perpetuated the myths that people stop all aggression as soon as they get shot once, and muggers, burglers, street thugs only act as single attackers. Also the myth that a handgun actually posseses serious power and energy that can actually knock people down, or even off of their feet, or remove limbs.

Handgun rounds suck. They are weak. They cannot be counted on to do quick stops reliably. I've seen patients who have been shot with handguns who told me it took a while to feel hits. One who NDd himself through his lower leg with a .45 told me "I heard and felt the gun go off. I knew I had shot myself, but it took a while before the pain really started." Of course he missed the tibia and the fibula, miraculously, which could account for some of the reduced pain. If he had shattered the bone I'm sure it would have been a different story. He called 911 and walked out of the house to wait for the EMTs on the porch.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:43 PM   #22
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There's alot of good information here and a great list of possibilities for you.However the best opinion I have heard was in picking a pistol that feels comfortable to you.A pistol that you intend to use for self defense should feel like an extension of you're arm it should point naturally and it should take so little effort that presenting it upon need would seem to feel like second nature.Go to you're next local gunshow and get a handful of everything that you can and see what is best for you.Make a list of the ones you like and go see if you can fire a few.Everyone has their favorites I know what mine is that dose not mean it'll be right for you.There are as many different pistols out there as there are shooters just stay away from the low end and read reviews on the ones you pick to put on you're list.

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Old 12-11-2012, 05:00 PM   #23
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1)4-6 rounds is great if you don't miss under stress, your attacker stops after a couple weak shots from a pistol,
2)and you can guarantee taht the only situation you could ever pssible find yourself in would include only one attacker
3)where you had no interfering barriers, clothing, and only had head on shots to take.
4)lso hope that your ammo performs just like it does on bare gellatin.

5)Hollywood has also perpetuated the myths that people stop all aggression as soon as they get shot once, and muggers, burglers, street thugs only act as single attackers. Also the myth that a handgun actually posseses serious power and energy that can actually knock people down, or even off of their feet, or remove limbs.

6)
called 911 and walked out of the house to wait for the EMTs on the porch.
1) At typical civilian self defense handgun engagement distances (8 yds or less) with 6 rounds most of us would hit at least a couple of times. Any engagement beyond handgun distance would not be considered a self defense situation and there fore is not properly part of this discussion we are not looking at a military requiremnents set.

2) No of course not, but in a civilian self defense situation ( other than mass rioyts for which a handgun is unsuitable anyway) you will not see hordes of determinbed combatrants surging at you ( and then you need a rifle anytway) , for the 1 or too somtimes 3 assailatnts 6 rds are plenty.
Every single objective study has shown that 2 rds or less are fired. even if faced with 4 teenage punks 9 oh ehaveens) they would scatter after the frist round. Its been shown time again.. this isnt the movies

3) most common handgun rounds but especially the .357 Magnum round will have no problem with any of those things

4) I have no worry that a hit of .357 Mag to your center mass will utterly incapactitate you. the human body cosists mostly of water just like ballistic gelatin..

5) Actually hollywood has perpetuated the opposite myth where heroes despite one or even 2 hits still heroically fight and often the voillains too.

6) Personal anecdoctes and nice and cute and all but they dont nullify objective empirical reality we have found in this country for many deacdes of studies for civilian self defense sitations


So:
- First rounds count your ability to hit on the first (or at latest the second) round will decide the fight one way another. This is the case in the vast majority of ciitzen self defense situations.


- Revolvers shine in the ability to make the first round hit.

Due to its simplicity and superior first round hit capability the revolver is objectively the ideal civilian self defense hand gun.

We all like to think of ourselfes as Rambo heroically fighitng off hordes, but thats not the reality of civilian self defense.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:25 PM   #24
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I have a Rock River Arms 308 with a 26" barrel coming in 3 months a guy I know told me the 26 in barrel feels like a bowling ball at the end of my barrel its so heavy is this true am I gonna be wanting to cut the barrel shorter

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Old 12-11-2012, 07:23 PM   #25
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1) At typical civilian self defense handgun engagement distances (8 yds or less) with 6 rounds most of us would hit at least a couple of times. Any engagement beyond handgun distance would not be considered a self defense situation and there fore is not properly part of this discussion we are not looking at a military requiremnents set.

2) No of course not, but in a civilian self defense situation ( other than mass rioyts for which a handgun is unsuitable anyway) you will not see hordes of determinbed combatrants surging at you ( and then you need a rifle anytway) , for the 1 or too somtimes 3 assailatnts 6 rds are plenty.
Every single objective study has shown that 2 rds or less are fired. even if faced with 4 teenage punks 9 oh ehaveens) they would scatter after the frist round. Its been shown time again.. this isnt the movies

3) most common handgun rounds but especially the .357 Magnum round will have no problem with any of those things

4) I have no worry that a hit of .357 Mag to your center mass will utterly incapactitate you. the human body cosists mostly of water just like ballistic gelatin..

5) Actually hollywood has perpetuated the opposite myth where heroes despite one or even 2 hits still heroically fight and often the voillains too.

6) Personal anecdoctes and nice and cute and all but they dont nullify objective empirical reality we have found in this country for many deacdes of studies for civilian self defense sitations

So:
- First rounds count your ability to hit on the first (or at latest the second) round will decide the fight one way another. This is the case in the vast majority of ciitzen self defense situations.

- Revolvers shine in the ability to make the first round hit.

Due to its simplicity and superior first round hit capability the revolver is objectively the ideal civilian self defense hand gun.

We all like to think of ourselfes as Rambo heroically fighitng off hordes, but thats not the reality of civilian self defense.
What are you typing on?

All this "data"you speak of is way too generalized and speculative. It's not about the average is about the could be. The average person never needs to defend themselves or others past first fighting. So if we're going with math none of us should bother carrying guns or worrying about defending ourselves.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:16 PM   #26
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My $.02. In a vehicle something a little more compact might be in order, tight spaces and all. An M&P .45c or Glock 30 would provide .45acp power and higher capacity than a revolver or 1911. MHO you understand.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:24 PM   #27
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Try to have the muzzle out the window when you fire; even a 9mm is LOUD inside a car. The CZ75 was mentioned; i love mine. I also love my GP100 revolver. Go try some on & see what fits.

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Old 12-11-2012, 08:58 PM   #28
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What are you typing on?

All this "data"you speak of is way too generalized and speculative. It's not about the average is about the could be. The average person never needs to defend themselves or others past first fighting. So if we're going with math none of us should bother carrying guns or worrying about defending ourselves.
When selecting a tool for a given job, you examine what your requirements are.

What I am noticing in the gun world is, a lot of folks are picking tools based on what works in hollywood or what "the military" uses...... regardless of what the actual objectivly analyzed requirements set for their application is.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by bluez View Post

When selecting a tool for a given job, you examine what your requirements are.

What I am noticing in the gun world is, a lot of folks are picking tools based on what works in hollywood or what "the military" uses...... regardless of what the actual objectivly analyzed requirements set for their application is.
I don't see any point here. There are no requirements yet, nothing has happened. Preparedness is what we're talking about here, requirements have nothing to do with it. Thats fact.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:15 AM   #30
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It all comes down to what fits you best. Bigger bullet, higher capacity, none of this means squat if you can not shoot it well in a great big hurry. If ever a time comes that you have to defend yourself and you survive it the one thing you will look back on is "damn!, all that happened really fast!!

My advice is to find friends, a gun range that rents, whatever you can do to get as many different types of pistols in your hands as you can. Find what feels best in your hands, narrow it down to a couple or few and see which of those you can put lead down range with the best. A G19 with uber mag capacity is just more chances to mess up. But remember you are responsible for every bullet that leaves your gun. You want to not have any unintended issues that can cause you much regret later. It really is like looking for a good rifle. You find the one that works best for you. The one that YOU shoot best.What someone else shoots well you might not be able to hit a thing with it or the groups might be more wide that what you should be comfortable with. Like with a rifle you are not looking to throw lead everywhere, you just want to hit your target where you want to hit it. I know of zero hunters that believe that capacity is the key for a good hunting rifle.The same for target shooters. A defense pistol really is no different. I am pretty accurate with my Para LTC. I can bring it up and shoot and I know that the hold will be where I want it to be. I think they are the most naturally pointing pistols around (1911's in general). So that's what goes with me on most occasions. I've owned other pistols and some worked really well some not as well. So I stick close to what works for me. My wife can't hit the broad side of her own rear end with it. But she can sling lead wit ha 357 revo like nothing I've ever seen (she is scary accurate ). So if she where to carry a pistol I'd advise her to use the revolver.

So get out there and get your hands on a bunch of pistols. Don't listen to anyone but your self. Most the modern gun makers put out a pretty good pistol. It's all a matte of what works best for you.

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