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Old 11-02-2007, 04:44 PM   #11
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Default Fact VS Opinion

The FBI analysis of the famous Miami Shootout gave birth to the FACT that a 10mm/40cal bullet HAS more energy and reliable stopping power than ANY 9mm.

As far as Texas DPS..ammo was the problem in 45acp....when often shooting at people in cars, and the DEAL from SIG to switch to 357SIG...the SIG has proven to be very effective to Texas DPS. CHP is a larger agency and uses 40S&W very effectively.

Like ANY caliber choice, evaluate the conditions YOU are most likely to have to use a pistol for self-defense....consider weather, clothing of badguys...and choose wisely.

Gold DOT 124JHP in 9mm has proven to be a very effective round....but most agencies carrying 9mm have traded them in for 40S&W as a more effective round. Texas DPS and the Secret Service like the 357SIG round.
FBI, DEA, Border Patrol, ICE all use 40S&W .

45acp is still the benchmark to which all self defense rounds are compared.
45acp is least dependant on velocity and bullet design to deliver foot pounds of disruptive energy to the target. ONLY hits count .

What is best for an individual is what you can hit with, when shooting in low light conditions and under stress.

"IF you brought a handgun to a gunfight.....you didn't plan well" ..Clint Smith

JMHO

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Old 11-03-2007, 03:59 AM   #12
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SIGH. I like to discuss, not argue, but when people throw inaccurate BS out there like it's fact I just can't ignore it.

(Having seen this kind of thing for about 6 years on many forums, I realize the caliber war is unwinnable.) All I did was tell the original poster that there were good rounds available for either. And I'll show below there are 9mm rounds that "outjuice" some .40 rounds. Some experts just wanted to tell me how wrong I was. Every forums got 'em.

So on to your post dgunsmith:

There were no .40/10mm rounds involved in the 1986 Miami shootout. The .40 didn't even exist until 1990. The 10mm was created in 1983, but the FBI didn't adapt it until 1990.

All pistol rounds used by both "sides" were 9mm, .38 Special, some .357 magnum.

Here are the FBI weapons that were used:

* Smith & Wesson .357 and .38 Special revolvers (all with .38 Special ammo)
* Smith & Wesson 459 9mm pistols (all with Winchester 115 grain JHP Silvertips)
* Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun

I won't go into the bad marksmanship, bad tactics, thing. I wasn't there, and feel bad for the agents that were killed or wounded.

And now for this:

"the FACT that a 10mm/40cal bullet HAS more energy and reliable stopping power than ANY 9mm." SIGH again. Another opinion, nothing more.

Now here's some FACTS dgunsmith, since you brought up the term "energy":

124 grain 9mm +P JHP @ 1250 fps = 432.4 foot pounds of muzzle energy (The Black Hills load I use)
127 grain 9mm +P+ JHP @ 1275 fps = 460.8 foot pounds of muzzle energy (The famous Winchester load-generally accepted as the best 9mm round, but hard on guns)
115 grain 9mm +P+ JHP at 1300+ fps = 433.8 foot pounds (Loads by Winchester, Federal, Corbon, Black Hills, etc.)

now the original, still common .40 round:
180 grain .40 JHP @1000 fps = 401.7 foot pounds of muzzle energy

??????????????? You do the math. You're wrong again.

I know, I know, 155 grain .40 JHP @ 1200 fps = 498 foot pounds. My favorite .40 load.


I think you mean the GOLD DOT +P 124JHP has proven to be an effective round. As used by the New York City police department among others. Just another little inaccuracy in your lecture. I agree that most agencies using ANYTHING else have gone to the .40, as guns wear out, and they are given great deals by the manufacturers.

I won't even bother with your opinion that the .45 is any kind of self-defense benchmark. Romantic clap-trap, unless you have some substantiating documentation.

By the way, since you keep using the term energy, let's look at the classic .45 ACP load

230 grain JHP or FMJ @ 850 fps = 371 foot pounds of muzzle energy. Compare it to any of the loads above. And that's only in a full 5" barrel.

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Old 11-03-2007, 05:17 AM   #13
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Default 40 vs 9

Hademall-I have a serious question for you. Have you ever actually been in a REAL firefight? You can spout off figures all day long and twist them around to semmingly fit what you say,however that don't make it true. The fact that dgunsmith is a gunsmith automatically makes him more knowledgable about different firearms. TRUST me-in a REAL firefight where real people are shooting real bullets at you,NO gun will seem good enough!!! I have been in actual firefights,both when deployed and in states,and I KNOW a 9mm in whatever bullet WILL NOT reliably down opponet. When the defectation impacts upon the cooling apperatus-you wany to sling the biggest damn bullets you can. That is the 1st classic way to tell if someone's inexperienced-if they are fixiated on 9mm over more sensible rounds.

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Old 11-03-2007, 05:32 AM   #14
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Default 9mm vs 40 or 45

Hademall-since you'll likely never be in a REAL firefight,why not ask our people from ww2,korea,or nam? The .45 is PROVEN in REAL world-not your paper world. I'm talking about ACTUAL experience-not what you believe. This only proves you have NEVER been in a gunfight.

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Old 11-03-2007, 05:51 AM   #15
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Wow, I don't know where to start. At the beginning I guess.

"Hademall-I have a serious question for you. Have you ever actually been in a REAL firefight?"

That's hilarious. What difference does that make? Math doesn't lie. I didn't twist anything. If you want the formula so you can check my figures, let me know.

"The fact that dgunsmith is a gunsmith automatically makes him more knowledgable about different firearms."

That's downright foolish. I've had "gunsmiths" butcher firearms.

"I have been in actual firefights,both when deployed and in states,and I KNOW a 9mm in whatever bullet WILL NOT reliably down opponet."

It would if you hit 'em right. I know gunfights have been won with .25's, and lost with .45's. What exact bullet and load were you using in the "in states" incident? Let me know if it was one of the ones I mentioned in my previous post. I know all about the NATO load not being considered up to snuff. I'm not even considering that for civilian use.

"That is the 1st classic way to tell if someone's inexperienced-if they are fixiated on 9mm over more sensible rounds."

Wow, is that written somewhere in the gunfight expert's manual? I've got 6 .40s. I think it's a great round. I've got 3 9mms. I also think it's a great round with the right load. The fact that I've got twice the number of .40s ought to tell you something. I feel equally good carrying 15 .40 155 grain JHP, or 17 124 grain +P 9mms. I'm only fixated on defending my statement that the 9mm has loads that are fine for self defense.

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Old 11-03-2007, 06:08 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stalkingbear View Post
Hademall-since you'll likely never be in a REAL firefight,why not ask our people from ww2,korea,or nam? The .45 is PROVEN in REAL world-not your paper world. I'm talking about ACTUAL experience-not what you believe. This only proves you have NEVER been in a gunfight.
I could be in a gunfight tomorrow, for all anybody knows. One thing is for sure, it'll be MY gunfight, and any experiences of yours won't matter to me much. I'll either be carrying a 9mm, .45, or .40., but I think the caliber itself will be one of the more insignificant factors.
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Old 11-12-2007, 11:52 AM   #17
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Default 9mm vs bigger

The simple facts are: #1 NOBODY can say for SURE what and how they will react in actual situation. #2 NOBODY can guarantee for SURE that the 1st (or any) bullets will expand in any situation or clothing level. That's why you go with biggest bore that's convienant to carry. A .45 bullet is as big starting out and will make same size hole as a 9mm does AFTER expansion(IF it does).
#3 Math DON'T show what ACTUALLY happens upon impact. ONLY experience does.
I respect that you likely HAVE had em all but are still a armchair expert UNTIL you have had to use weapons in deadly conflict!

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