Is the 5.7 FN a good defensive round and pistol? - Page 2
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Handguns > General Handgun Discussion > Is the 5.7 FN a good defensive round and pistol?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-21-2008, 05:17 PM   #11
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3479 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gorknoids View Post
He also tested Dragonskin, and despite what some people say, it IS a worthless product.

I am officially calling BS on that statement. There has been SO MUCH underhanded dealing with this issue, not to mention massive pay offs, tests being halted for "circumspec" reasons, test dates being moved, test requirements being stretched, or shortened, to keep one product in a massively profitable military contract and to keep another one out.

I have an extensive file at home on the personal PC about some of the tests, the people involved and who they were at the time of making "the statement".

There is a SEVERE gray, bordering on charcoal, area surrounding the trials for body armor that no one can say, with certainty, that any product has been tested to the lone criteria and not a modified one.

JD
__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2008, 12:13 AM   #12
Supporting Member
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Mark F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bedford Texas
Posts: 2,865
Liked 54 Times on 35 Posts
Likes Given: 12

Default

I saw tests using Dragonskin on WEAPONOLOGY, and from what I saw Dragonskin is exceptional in absorbing high-energy projectiles. It also withstood a direct impact on top a grenade. I think there's some hanky panky going on....

__________________
*** Don't Mess With TEXAS ***
Μολὼν λάβε
Mark F is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2008, 03:07 AM   #13
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3479 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

Mark - I, literally, stumbled onto DragonSkin about a year or so before it made it big with Weaponology and a couple of other shows. There has been so much underhanded stuff I could write three pages of stuff, just on what I have been able to "dig up".

How about a few highlights?

The Director of Engineering for the current issued Body Armor, Interceptor, happens to be one of the three LEAD techs in charge of the evaluation for DragonSkin under submittal to the military trials? His name was Dr. Karl Masters and at the time of the tests for DragonSkin to replace the Interceptor Armor, his day job was "Acting Product Manager for Interceptor"

Now, call me paranoid, but when the Acting Product Manager for the product you are trying to surpass is the one of the people conducting the "closed" tests of your product, and you are not allowed to be there, or evaluate the data of the "failed" tests - I call that hokey....

Now, for the sake of ease on you, my fair reader, I am going to link to Pinnacle's facts page, but all the facts can be verified by an independent search using Google and it can also be found in several volumes of lawsuits filed by Pinnacle.

Source

I wish I could say that was ALL that was underhanded about this cover up. Here is Main & Central which is a pro military, expose what is not getting to our troops sort of website. Read the damning condemnation of Retired Army Colonel John D. Norwood.

This guy was HEAD of Armor Procurement for the Army. In his capacity, he was the guy making the decisions what our guys were to wear into harms way. Upon retirement, guess where he took an Executive Level job. Armor Holdings Inc; one of the two primary providers of.... wait for it..... Interceptor Body Armor to the Army.... He was then the subject of an Article 32 investigation by the Army... Does anyone know what an Article 32 means to a retired officer?!?!

Yeah, read a little further about how four West Point Grads were involved not only in the cover up of the tests, but also with keeping the current status quo Interceptor Armor with our troops...

There is so much to this story that would enrage the parents of our troops if the whole story would ever be printed. The thing is, for me, it basically boils down to two issues.

1) A Better overall product ( DragonSkin ), that could save American lives, has been kept from our troops and my tax dollars have been spent on an inferior product.

2) My tax dollars, that were spent on the inferior product, were then redirected as a form of Gold & Platinum Umbrellas, not to mention flat kickbacks, to members of the Military that are SUPPOSED to be looking out for the best interest of our troops...

Take a look into some of the details behind the story and see what you think.

Personally, I have worn the Interceptor stuff in the field, and I have tried on the DragonSkin and worn it, though not in the field. Thankfully I have never taken any rounds in either product, but I can tell you if I had to, I would much rather have the DragonSkin on than that ceramic plate crap with all the nice ballistic nylon just waiting to let bullets through....

__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2008, 04:21 AM   #14
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 578
Default

Quote:
The Director of Engineering for the current issued Body Armor, Interceptor, happens to be one of the three LEAD techs in charge of the evaluation for DragonSkin under submittal to the military trials? His name was Dr. Karl Masters and at the time of the tests for DragonSkin to replace the Interceptor Armor, his day job was "Acting Product Manager for Intercept

There was a time regardless of what one might find on your links JD just the above would invalidate any and all testing done on Dragonskin based the good old standard of

CONFLICT OF INTEREST !

Said tests would have to be redone after a group of honestly impartial people were doing them .

Money funneled into the right pockets can make a world of difference can't it ?

I don't have a dog in this fight but I know for a fact I watched a video of Dragonskins performance against not just one or two rounds but dozens of rounds of 9mm , 7.62x39 and shrapnel dispensing explosives all to the same vest and NOTHING penetrated it . I found that pretty damn impressive considering I have read that most body armor makers suggest it be replaced after a single hit from a small arm .

And I watched this Years ago when the subject was brought up on another Gun forum I use to go to .
__________________
BigO01 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2008, 05:01 AM   #15
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3479 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

I don't have a dog in this fight either BigO - but if there is a better product available for the troops, by God I want my tax dollars providing it.

I saw all the same tests, and I was impressed, but I have also worn the stuff and it flows with the body much more than ceramic plates do. Those Dragon Skin Ceramic Disks are a better overall product than one big plate covering your chest.

There is so much behind the scenes stuff, underhanded stuff going on, it would just make you puke if you read the whole timeline of the trials...

I just want the best overall products for our troops, whether it be body armor, helmet, boots, water purification or your firearm.

JD

__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2008, 04:16 PM   #16
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
matt g's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,885
Liked 7 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Our troops should be outfitted with the best that money can buy, but unfortunately, this never happens. Ask anyone that served, they tell you that the best thing that the military issued them was their poncho liner. It's a bad scene when every ground soldier feels that their best piece of equipment is their woobie.

__________________

"'Did you ever wonder why we had to run for shelter when the promise of a brave new world unfurled beneath a clear blue sky? "
Roger Waters

Vote freedom, join the Libertarian Party.

matt g is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2008, 04:38 PM   #17
Supporting Member
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Mark F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bedford Texas
Posts: 2,865
Liked 54 Times on 35 Posts
Likes Given: 12

Default

Haven't you HEARD? Low bid wins...

__________________
*** Don't Mess With TEXAS ***
Μολὼν λάβε
Mark F is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2008, 04:44 PM   #18
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3479 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

Not really - but I see what you are getting at Mark.

When the cost of a screwdriver is $1100 - I would rather have the best possible screwdriver for our good folks in the military who were selfless enough to put themselves in harms way.

After all, it's OUR collective $1100, we should be able to have some say on which product they buy with it....

__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2008, 09:01 PM   #19
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: carson city,nevada
Posts: 56
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robocop10mm View Post
AP 5.7 ammo is restricted to LE/Military. You would be hard pressed to find a non-expanding bullet on the open market. Most of the ammo that is civi legal is HP or Ballistic tip type.
Over penetration? Doubtful. Extreme velocity with expanding bullets leads to fragmentation. Under penetration is more likely.

The 5.7 pistol takes the light bullet/high velocity argument to the nth degree. It is the polar opposite to the .45 ACP. Is it a viable SD round/gun? IMHO probably. Do I own one? NO.

I have heard of 5.7 KB's. Is there a problem with the gun? I don't know, but I won't be buying one any time soon.
You are right about what you saying about damaged caused by high velocity but that drops off when you go to any other commercial bullet because of the added weight of the bullet. The non expanding AP bullet that I think you are referencing is the 27 grain copper jacketed aluminum bullet which really cooks. I don't know if they are still available but when I bought my gun that was all that was available. When you step up to even a 35 grain bullet you are adding 23% to the weight of the bullet and at 40 grains another 42% which really slows the bullet down and it will no longer perform the magic of high velocity that the round was originally intended.
__________________
h2oking is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 06:02 AM   #20
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Recon 173's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 191
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

The Chinese are using the 5.7 and 5.8 cartridges in their new pistols and some of their new carbines. It looks like the Chinese want their troops to be able to carry a lot of small bore, high velocity firearms and ammunition. What makes ANY cartridge work are the tactics behind it. Would I use an FN 5.7 for anything? Nope. Not at all. That's the sort of bullet that people kid would "put out an eye and make somebody mad if you shot them with it."

__________________
Recon 173 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Good 38 Special self defense round spittinfire Revolver Handguns 42 07-13-2011 01:15 AM
Defensive Posture: Flashlights SGT-MILLER Training & Safety 8 05-30-2009 04:32 AM
Defensive Revolver SGT-MILLER Training & Safety 8 04-14-2009 03:14 PM
Good self defense round / 45 ACP Tom the roofer Semi-Auto Handguns 8 02-27-2008 12:53 AM
defensive vs. offensive handgun UltraLazer General Handgun Discussion 3 08-02-2007 01:52 PM