IMPORTANT Illinois CCW Notice! - Page 4
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:44 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by fickenmeimirish View Post
As far as ive understood, the local governments can make more restrictive laws unless there is a bill or amendment stating shall carry state wide. A local government can make more restrictive laws or regulations than already put in place by the federal government. I could be completely wrong on this but thats how ive always understood it. I have also heard pro 2nd amendment polititians and lobbyists state this regarding the judiciary hearings and fighting to get a fair bill passed
What you are describing is inconsistency within a state. Oklahoma, for example, has a preemption clause that prevents local governments from passing laws related to handgun ownership or licensing. Local governments can pass laws relating to discharge of firearms, but they cannot prevent a permit holder from carrying, nor from using the gun in self defense. Not all states have a preemption clause, which can lead to the problem you have mentioned.

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Are you an indiana resident? Assuming you are, I am sure when the law goes into effect the state will honor any non resident permit
That would be a very bad assumption. Each state decides for itself how it handles reciprocity. That's one of the big problems with having individual state regulation.

There are several online references that provide tables showing permit reciprocity in both directions. That is, one table that shows State X recognizes permits from the following states... and another table that shows permits from State X are recognized BY the following states... Here is one:

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html

A Federal reciprocity law, especially one that eliminates local gerrymandering of regulations, would be the best situation. Make handgun licensing similar to drivers licenses. Require that all states recognize other states handgun licenses (and allow such licenses themselves). This might require some definition of minimum standards for licensing (training, qualification tests, etc.) similar to drivers licensing.

The rationale behind the drivers license reciprocity is that interstate commerce (which falls under the Federal commerce clause) would be directly affected by inconsistent reciprocity across state lines. A similar rationale behind handgun license reciprocity would be that second amendment rights are directly affected by inconsistent reciprocity across state lines.

Of course the present political climate does not include anyone willing to recognize the value of this, but that would be the ideal, at least IMHO.
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by fickenmeimirish View Post
As far as ive understood, the local governments can make more restrictive laws unless there is a bill or amendment stating shall carry state wide. A local government can make more restrictive laws or regulations than already put in place by the federal government. I could be completely wrong on this but thats how ive always understood it. I have also heard pro 2nd amendment polititians and lobbyists state this regarding the judiciary hearings and fighting to get a fair bill passed
Laws and regulations are handled differently. For example EPA issues regulations not laws if the US EPA says there can only be 10 ppm lead in
waste water. The IL-EPA can make that limit 5 ppm lead but not 15 ppm
lead. But that is a regulation not a law; in particular, a law or in this case a
Federal Court ruling which has the same binding authority as a law. The
Court ruling stated that Illinois cannot ban CCW, and has to either pass a
law or allow Constitutional Carry by June 8th. A city cannot ban CCW under
that ruling, if the State cannot ban neither can a County or a City, etc.

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Originally Posted by austin92 View Post
Will Illinois honor Indiana permits?
They have not even started to address reciprocity. Personally I do not think
states have the constitutional right to regulate Firearms or CCW; The US
Constitution states that we clearly have the right "to keep and bear arms."
Any law Federal, State or Local resticting that right is a clear violation of the
Second Amendment.

Reciprocity will likely be handled under a separate bill.
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:08 PM   #33
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Probably varies from state to state. Okla includes both pre-emption and reciprocity in the same bill.

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Old 03-18-2013, 10:59 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Balota View Post

That would be a very bad assumption. Each state decides for itself how it handles reciprocity. That's one of the big problems with having individual state regulation.

There are several online references that provide tables showing permit reciprocity in both directions. That is, one table that shows State X recognizes permits from the following states... and another table that shows permits from State X are recognized BY the following states... Here is one:

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html

A Federal reciprocity law, especially one that eliminates local gerrymandering of regulations, would be the best situation. Make handgun licensing similar to drivers licenses. Require that all states recognize other states handgun licenses (and allow such licenses themselves). This might require some definition of minimum standards for licensing (training, qualification tests, etc.) similar to drivers licensing.

The rationale behind the drivers license reciprocity is that interstate commerce (which falls under the Federal commerce clause) would be directly affected by inconsistent reciprocity across state lines. A similar rationale behind handgun license reciprocity would be that second amendment rights are directly affected by inconsistent reciprocity across state lines.

Of course the present political climate does not include anyone willing to recognize the value of this, but that would be the ideal, at least IMHO.
How would it be a very bad assumption? Based off of the bills that are currently being reviewed all a non resident would need to ccw in illinois is a permit from the state they live in or they would need to apply for a non resident license
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:13 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Shade View Post
Laws and regulations are handled differently. For example EPA issues regulations not laws if the US EPA says there can only be 10 ppm lead in
waste water. The IL-EPA can make that limit 5 ppm lead but not 15 ppm
lead. But that is a regulation not a law; in particular, a law or in this case a
Federal Court ruling which has the same binding authority as a law. The
Court ruling stated that Illinois cannot ban CCW, and has to either pass a
law or allow Constitutional Carry by June 8th. A city cannot ban CCW under
that ruling, if the State cannot ban neither can a County or a City, etc.
Ah, I apologize and stand corrected, technically we were both right I was just wording it incorrectly, did not mean to use the word law, what I meant is if given constitutional carry and not a bill with statewide shall issue, counties and cities can make restrictions and regulations as to the process to obtain a ccw permit, so cook county for example can do just like nyc, say you must show reason as to why you need to concealed carry, then pick and choose who they want to give permits to (politicians, celebrities, and so on) and make it almost impossible to obtain a permit, effectively "banning" ccw.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:56 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by fickenmeimirish View Post
How would it be a very bad assumption? Based off of the bills that are currently being reviewed all a non resident would need to ccw in illinois is a permit from the state they live in or they would need to apply for a non resident license
The bad assumption is that the law they finally pass will include reciprocity. Not all states recognize other states. Illinois seems the most unwilling to allow CCW at all, much less for people from out of state.

EDIT: I went back and checked. The original HB0997 does include reciprocity with any state that recognizes Illinois permits and whose laws are substantially like those of Illinois. Unfortunately, with all the amendments that have been attached to this bill, almost no other state is as restrictive. And the few that are do not include reciprocity (NJ for example). So, in effect, although the wording suggests that they would recognize other state's permits, the amendments give them all the excuses they need to deny them.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:05 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by fickenmeimirish View Post
Ah, I apologize and stand corrected, technically we were both right I was just wording it incorrectly, did not mean to use the word law, what I meant is if given constitutional carry and not a bill with statewide shall issue, counties and cities can make restrictions and regulations as to the process to obtain a ccw permit, so cook county for example can do just like nyc, say you must show reason as to why you need to concealed carry, then pick and choose who they want to give permits to (politicians, celebrities, and so on) and make it almost impossible to obtain a permit, effectively "banning" ccw.
I think we agree on that part. Cities and counties can make restrictions as long as the state law does NOT claim pre-emption. Oklahoma does preempt all lower levels of government within Oklahoma from passing or enforcing any more restrictive laws regarding licensing and carry. But not all states do. Considering the past history in Illinois, if the decision to not pre-empt will cause more trouble, they'll probably do just that and decide not to pre-empt
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:54 AM   #38
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I think we agree on that part. Cities and counties can make restrictions as long as the state law does NOT claim pre-emption. Oklahoma does preempt all lower levels of government within Oklahoma from passing or enforcing any more restrictive laws regarding licensing and carry. But not all states do. Considering the past history in Illinois, if the decision to not pre-empt will cause more trouble, they'll probably do just that and decide not to pre-empt
Yes, and that is why Todd Vandermyde and others are working hard and insisting that any bill passed must be state-wide shall issue
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:05 AM   #39
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The bad assumption is that the law they finally pass will include reciprocity. Not all states recognize other states. Illinois seems the most unwilling to allow CCW at all, much less for people from out of state.

EDIT: I went back and checked. The original HB0997 does include reciprocity with any state that recognizes Illinois permits and whose laws are substantially like those of Illinois. Unfortunately, with all the amendments that have been attached to this bill, almost no other state is as restrictive. And the few that are do not include reciprocity (NJ for example). So, in effect, although the wording suggests that they would recognize other state's permits, the amendments give them all the excuses they need to deny them.
That is assuming the amendments will get passed, without many of the amendments im ok with HB0997 for the most part, the anti-gunners throwing in all these amendments is sort of a last ditch effort to screw us out of our rights. I dont think it will be passed with these amendments, as it has been expressed that the ones standing on the house floor fighting for our rights will not tolerate a bill that contains anything not 100% fair to us, as they have worked hard and been willing to compromise way more than what should be acceptable in the past. Now that it is a do or die situation, they will not compromise much at all
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:53 AM   #40
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I was just wondering cause some times i make a Sunday beer run over there. It'd b nice if I didn't have to lock the gun n the trunk. I live about 20 minutes from terre haute, Indiana

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