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Old 08-14-2013, 12:01 AM   #51
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The biggest block to the development of alternative energy sources are the ones who corner the market on our present energy system.

Almost any time you see something that looks like it is counter-productive, look to see who makes a buck off of it, and it will become clear.

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Old 08-14-2013, 01:04 AM   #52
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(Note: I prefer not to be referred to as "VD" if you please. I hope you understand.)

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Originally Posted by flybuddy View Post
Hey VD, lighten up on the oil companies.
I am only attempting to respond to the assertions that oil will see us through for eternity. I am 100% in favor of developing domestic oil resources alongside the development of alternatives (as I have said).

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While I share your passion for Electric Vehicles and green energy and even agree about past oil company conspiracies like "Who Killed the Electric Car". I firmly believe those days are past us. The conspiracy theories at this point are only kept alive by folks who think that you have to kill conventional energy for anyone to get really serious on green energy.
And this crowd of extremists are easily balanced by the crowd that is 100% against all alternative energy development, or at least any government subsidies of the same. Some of those have been contributing tot his thread!


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The oil companies will put out 100% domestically even if our usage halves, they will survive no matter what happens and most of them have diversified across the energy spectrum to hedge their bets.
What we desperately need is for everyone to embrace BOTH conventional and green.
Total agreement here.

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Tapping domestic resources will solve nearly every problem our country faces currently. At the same time we should be aggressively seeking alternative energies that can work on a large scale.
Your first statement is a wild exaggeration, but I will agree that developing domestic oil resources will is one piece of a small puzzle that will solve nearly every energy problem our country faces currently, and if we aggressively seek to develop alternative energies that can work on a large scale at the same time, we probably have the other piece of that puzzle.

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Having a Californian (with a 10 mpg muscle car for an avatar) preach on energy is the epitome of illogic.
Actually Axxe picked that avatar for me and I never changed it. Check out the thread here: http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f61/lets-play-game-84308/

I should change it to something of my own again, shouldn't I?

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The state alone uses more gas than any COUNTRY in the world yet they want nothing to do in any way with conventional energy.
California is actually a pioneer in energy efficiency. Ever heard of the Rosenfeld Effect? The Rosenfeld Effect is the empirical fact that electricity use per capita in California (CA) has been almost flat from 1973 to 2006, whereas use in the US has gone up 50%. The effect is attributed to energy efficiency, a cause pioneered by Arthur H. Rosenfeld.

I could easily cite as many articles claiming the opposite as you can claiming your side of it. The fact is that Big Oil enjoys many billions of dollars in subsidies and tax breaks every year, and they have done so for well over a century now.

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I appreciate that there are people like you that are passionate about alternative energy. As we've been saying for 50 years, it WILL be the future. But while we're waiting should we be relying on foreign oil? "X" amount of barrels are used per day worldwide whether we drill or they do. At least if we do it, it will be more environmentally friendly and our economy will blossom allowing us the funds to pursue better methods of energy if we are smart enough to do so.
Absolutely. We must break the stranglehold that foreign oil has on us.
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Old 08-14-2013, 01:07 AM   #53
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And how about this nut job from California. Who does he think he is?


http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_23846136/elon-musk-unveils-plans-hyperloop-futuristic-transportation-system?IADID=Search-www.mercurynews.com-www.mercurynews.com


That idea is just freaking crazy!

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Old 08-14-2013, 12:35 PM   #54
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California is actually a pioneer in energy efficiency. Ever heard of the Rosenfeld Effect? The Rosenfeld Effect is the empirical fact that electricity use per capita in California (CA) has been almost flat from 1973 to 2006, whereas use in the US has gone up 50%. The effect is attributed to energy efficiency, a cause pioneered by Arthur H. Rosenfeld.
This from the people who forced low flow toilets on to all San Francisco residents. Right and now they have to flush millions of gallons of bleach through the sewer every year to keep the smell of CRAP from over taking the city. Oh and the state that now says you can't make a MALE school ages child go into the MALE locker room for gym if he feels like a FEMALE that day you have to allow IT into the girls locker room.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361896/San-Francisco-spends-14-million-bleach-eco-toilets-cause-stink.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/12/california-enact-nations-first-law-protecting-tran/

Green energy should be getting more funding than the bloated BIG OIL. I love seeing the Chevron commercials about how they are working so hard to develop green energy alternatives YEAH BIG BS on that one. Just like Fracking is safe and poses no danger to ground water what so ever. A funny thing happened not too far from me. The forced everyone to go to energy efficient lighting, and using less energy all together in the homes. So usage dropped by almost 40% WOO HOO everyone thought until they got their power bills and the power company said do to the lack of energy usage they had to raise everyone's rate. So you were right back to paying what you paid before for less.

Then again a lady running for Mayor of Austin Tx about 12 to 14 years ago wanted to ban all motor traffic inside the city limits for something like 4 am to 11 pm. I think she got beat out by a homeless cross dresser.
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Old 08-14-2013, 01:02 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainfire View Post
The biggest block to the development of alternative energy sources are the ones who corner the market on our present energy system.

Almost any time you see something that looks like it is counter-productive, look to see who makes a buck off of it, and it will become clear.
If you have a 401K CF, the you your talking about is You. Likely you wont be happy if your retirement goes down because NRG suppliers lose lots of money will you? Unless you live in the woods with no roads, electricity or other NRG demands, your the problem unless your part of the solution, talking about it doesnt fix anything....
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Old 08-14-2013, 03:26 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingdad View Post
(Note: I prefer not to be referred to as "VD" if you please. I hope you understand.)



I am only attempting to respond to the assertions that oil will see us through for eternity. I am 100% in favor of developing domestic oil resources alongside the development of alternatives (as I have said).



And this crowd of extremists are easily balanced by the crowd that is 100% against all alternative energy development, or at least any government subsidies of the same. Some of those have been contributing tot his thread!




Total agreement here.



Your first statement is a wild exaggeration, but I will agree that developing domestic oil resources will is one piece of a small puzzle that will solve nearly every energy problem our country faces currently, and if we aggressively seek to develop alternative energies that can work on a large scale at the same time, we probably have the other piece of that puzzle.



Actually Axxe picked that avatar for me and I never changed it. Check out the thread here: http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f61/lets-play-game-84308/

I should change it to something of my own again, shouldn't I?



California is actually a pioneer in energy efficiency. Ever heard of the Rosenfeld Effect? The Rosenfeld Effect is the empirical fact that electricity use per capita in California (CA) has been almost flat from 1973 to 2006, whereas use in the US has gone up 50%. The effect is attributed to energy efficiency, a cause pioneered by Arthur H. Rosenfeld.



I could easily cite as many articles claiming the opposite as you can claiming your side of it. The fact is that Big Oil enjoys many billions of dollars in subsidies and tax breaks every year, and they have done so for well over a century now.



Absolutely. We must break the stranglehold that foreign oil has on us.

Good post, well thought out..Only thing is that full tapping of our domestic resources solving most of our problems is not a wild exaggeration.
Energy is obvious
Militarily, it keeps from having to continually "protect our interests"
Middle East--WE stop funding radicalism
Economically--millions back to work, cheaper goods, more tax base
It's actually harder to figure out things it will not improve
Even worldwide environmental improvement as we would be producing this energy in a more environmentally friendly way than current producers.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:37 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunnut07 View Post
This from the people who forced low flow toilets on to all San Francisco residents. Right and now they have to flush millions of gallons of bleach through the sewer every year to keep the smell of CRAP from over taking the city. Oh and the state that now says you can't make a MALE school ages child go into the MALE locker room for gym if he feels like a FEMALE that day you have to allow IT into the girls locker room.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361896/San-Francisco-spends-14-million-bleach-eco-toilets-cause-stink.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/12/california-enact-nations-first-law-protecting-tran/
What does that have to do with energy? Well, I guess the low flow toilets, if they ever perfect them (especially for residential use), would require less energy due to pumping reductions. I have used those zero water toilets and as long as they are properly maintained they are incredibly efficient. If they are not properly maintained they are a horror. My buddies who own Alice's Restaurant in Woodside CA installed zero flush toilets and it has been a life saver for them since they are on a private water system with a septic tank. But they haven't seen a reduction in their energy costs.

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Green energy should be getting more funding than the bloated BIG OIL. I love seeing the Chevron commercials about how they are working so hard to develop green energy alternatives YEAH BIG BS on that one. Just like Fracking is safe and poses no danger to ground water what so ever.
Yeas, that cracks me up too. Oil companies that have an alternative energy program but they only do it for window dressing. BP is one exception though. They seem to actually be committed to it from what I understand.

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A funny thing happened not too far from me. The forced everyone to go to energy efficient lighting, and using less energy all together in the homes. So usage dropped by almost 40% WOO HOO everyone thought until they got their power bills and the power company said do to the lack of energy usage they had to raise everyone's rate. So you were right back to paying what you paid before for less.
Here in CA they are talking about taxing people who have installed net generation systems for the energy they no longer consume. So far they have been unsuccessful. It would not affect off-grid installations though.

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Then again a lady running for Mayor of Austin Tx about 12 to 14 years ago wanted to ban all motor traffic inside the city limits for something like 4 am to 11 pm. I think she got beat out by a homeless cross dresser.
In Europe that have been regulating city traffic for years by charging a congestion fee. The more congested it is the higher the fee. I think there are times when some cities shut down all traffic entering and only let vehicles out.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:56 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by flybuddy View Post
Good post, well thought out..Only thing is that full tapping of our domestic resources solving most of our problems is not a wild exaggeration.
Energy is obvious
Militarily, it keeps from having to continually "protect our interests"
Middle East--WE stop funding radicalism
Economically--millions back to work, cheaper goods, more tax base
It's actually harder to figure out things it will not improve
Even worldwide environmental improvement as we would be producing this energy in a more environmentally friendly way than current producers.
Well, you bring up some points. More of a spin on your position, but I'll give it to you. I would phrase it differently though.

Miltarily: The military uses something like 1/3 of our daily energy consumption every single day. If we brought them home and shut down our hundreds and hundreds of overseas bases, that would save energy. We can run an entire war off of a couple of primarily nuclear powered carrier groups for Pete's sake! Bring 'em all home and we use less energy militarily.

Middle East: Absolutely! Stop buying oil from the ME and they lose revenue which is often directly funneled to terrorism.

Economically: You sound like friggin' Obama for Christ's sake! Economically there would not be any direct and longstanding benefits (though short-term we would see economic benefits from developing infrastructure and other areas). BUT there would be some. More of them would be realized by simply bringing all of the production back to our shores. This is not an energy solution though, it is an economic one.

Things would undeniable improve, but to what degree is debatable. Personally I just feel better about not having to rely on a foreign power for our energy needs.
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Old 08-14-2013, 08:06 PM   #59
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... In Europe that have been regulating city traffic for years by charging a congestion fee. The more congested it is the higher the fee. I think there are times when some cities shut down all traffic entering and only let vehicles out.
Isn't the European traffic/congestion aggravated by their antiquated road system that has so many routes laid out before cars became widespread? I always heard that was the biggest part of the problem; that off the autobahn and similar thruways, every other road is a tiny, twisting lane barely wide enough for a pair of Women-of-Wallmart to pass.


Regarding Big Oil, maybe this can help: http://news.yahoo.com/mexico-unveils-energy-reform-seeks-profit-sharing-private-164305513.html I would certainly rather buy my gasoline from Mexico than the middle east, so long as it met U.S. standards.
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:22 AM   #60
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Crude oil is becoming increasingly more difficult to find and extract. We are at peak oil... look at the price and volume.

We love the shale oil, fracking will free that oil up... except it requires a lot of water, which is contributing to the emptying of aquifers in TX.

The Crash Course is an EXCELLENT series that pulls everything together.
http://www.peakprosperity.com/crashcourse
If you only watch one, watch episode 17a. Lays out the cost of extracting the oil, and how we reached global peak discoveries 40 years ago.

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