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Old 05-08-2013, 12:00 PM   #41
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Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment- it would depend on what I do, and the intangible portion of that position.

If I am a construction Laborer (guy holding the shovel or wheelbarrow) expectations of me are pretty low- show up on time, sober, wear the hardhat, move the wheelbarrow from A to B.

However, I presently represent a professional sector of management to our customers. Yes, have job that requires initials behind name. An inherent aspect of that job is mature, professional judgement. If I showed up for work with swastikas tattooed on my forehead, how long do you think I would hold that job?

Would my boss be infringing on my freedom of speech when he exercises HIS freedom of speech? (PS- he is an old school grad of Virginia Military Institute, just in case you had any doubt about how the above would turn out!)

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Old 05-08-2013, 01:41 PM   #42
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I agree. People need to behave themselves 24/7 and be held accountable for their actions.

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Old 05-08-2013, 05:08 PM   #43
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C3 and Trip, very good points and I agree with you. It hadn't occurred to me that social character might be a requirement of the position. And most employers do reserve the right to fire you if you sneeze in the wrong direction. Most artists don't have those kinds of restrictions, so she should have known she was risking her employment.

Let's change the question slightly then. Say she was willing to lose her job (Daddy will apologize for her even though she's an adult, he'll probably pay for her.) and was okay with that. Did she have a 1A right to take the picture? Also, since no one saw it being taken, she could've kept it to herself and showed it to friends without repercussions. Did she somehow yell "Fire!" By posting it on FB? Does our 1A right end because it's viewable by the world?

Notdku, I agree 100%. I'm constantly complaining that the biggest degeneration is everyone blaming others for all of their problems. It seems everyone has a person to blame or excuse for their condition and a reason why they aren't doing something about it. I swear I either lived in the 1800's or was meant to. I had a job the same month it was legal and worked my a$$ off at multiples when I could. I have a finely honed work ethic, believe in self-sufficiency and practice it, believe trust and respect are earned before their given and I am courteous to everyone. I even wear hats (NOT ball caps!) and only stopped tipping them to ladies when I was constantly laughed at - I guess some courtesies do die. All this to explain that I would LOVE for it to swing back towards everyone being 100% responsible for every action they take, regardless of why. If that were to happen, common sense would be applied to actions far more often.

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Old 05-08-2013, 05:19 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by TekGreg View Post

Let's change the question slightly then. Say she was willing to lose her job (Daddy will apologize for her even though she's an adult, he'll probably pay for her.) and was okay with that. Did she have a 1A right to take the picture? Also, since no one saw it being taken, she could've kept it to herself and showed it to friends without repercussions. Did she somehow yell "Fire!" By posting it on FB? Does our 1A right end because it's viewable by the world?
There's really no need to change the question at all I think. I believe I know what you're getting at.

Is it, "did she do anything illegal?"

If so, then no, not technically, unless she was DTP, but I don't think that was the case.

"did she do anything morally wrong?"
That's opinion. My opinion, yes. But my morals and values may be different from yours. My morals say there's nothing wrong with killing a feral or semi feral cat for climbing on my brand freaking new car and scratching the paint, yet I was compared to the monster Michael Vick when I mentioned that, he who forced dogs to brutally fight to the death for money and entertainment, and it's a pretty well known fact that family pets are often stolen for training and fighting.

Is there another angle that comes to mind for you? I'm enjoying this exchange of ideas and opinion.

How about this...

If she did nothing technically illegal, and her first amendment rights protect her freedom to pose for this picture, then did her employer violate her rights by firing her?

I would say no, if there's an at will employment contract. What say you?
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:21 PM   #45
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How about this...

If she did nothing technically illegal, and her first amendment rights protect her freedom to pose for this picture, then did her employer violate her rights by firing her?

I would say no, if there's an at will employment contract. What say you?
Or maybe that's what you were getting at?
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:47 PM   #46
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"I disapprove of what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
-Evelyn Beatrice Hall, in Friends of Voltaire

"America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours." You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms."
-partial quote, movie, "An American President."

Quoting movies is not what we used to call an "authoritative source," but I thought it said it best.

If we can burn our own flag (The only country in the world where the act is not punishable as treason) in protest, how is a picture bucking convention a violation of 1A? Losing the job we've determined was her employer's choice, done. But I guess I wonder where exactly she went wrong.

If the FB posting was the error, then I guess it is not a vehicle of free speech but one of acquiescing to social acceptance or majority rule, which may be the same thing. We as 2A advocates do not fall into the majority either and I think would understand better the idea of bucking the trend.

The men in that cemetery died for the flag. Did they also die for the right to burn it? Did they die for the right for a woman with poor taste to mock them and then post the photo? I guess her rights do not keep those of us who believe in honor from hating her - she'll have to deal with that. I guess the question is whether mocking the dead is any worse than burning the flag...



Sorry for hijacking the thread for my own musings. Please post messages of anger freely - she certainly deserves it!

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Old 05-08-2013, 05:54 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trip286

Or maybe that's what you were getting at?
Originally, yes. But it would all depend on her contract and its reliance on professional ethics. My wife does not have a contract at her job as a professional at a Fortune 100 company, but she has to agree to a Code of Ethics every single year. So you always have to balance your desire to maintain employment with your desire to buck convention.

I guess I wonder why this nobody posts this pic and gets this vitriolic reaction from everyone, even people that don't know her, but the rich, famous and popular can do this and actually profit from it with the public's blessing.
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“Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." (I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.). Thomas Jefferson

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-Edmund Burke, Loosely translated from Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents. (1770)

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Old 05-08-2013, 05:57 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by TekGreg View Post
"I disapprove of what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
-Evelyn Beatrice Hall, in Friends of Voltaire

"America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours." You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms."
-partial quote, movie, "An American President."

Quoting movies is not what we used to call an "authoritative source," but I thought it said it best.

If we can burn our own flag (The only country in the world where the act is not punishable as treason) in protest, how is a picture bucking convention a violation of 1A? Losing the job we've determined was her employer's choice, done. But I guess I wonder where exactly she went wrong.

If the FB posting was the error, then I guess it is not a vehicle of free speech but one of acquiescing to social acceptance or majority rule, which may be the same thing. We as 2A advocates do not fall into the majority either and I think would understand better the idea of bucking the trend.

The men in that cemetery died for the flag. Did they also die for the right to burn it? Did they die for the right for a woman with poor taste to mock them and then post the photo? I guess her rights do not keep those of us who believe in honor from hating her - she'll have to deal with that. I guess the question is whether mocking the dead is any worse than burning the flag...



Sorry for hijacking the thread for my own musings. Please post messages of anger freely - she certainly deserves it!
Outstanding. Somebody gets it. I personally find her act disgusting, but that doesn't matter. I have sworn to uphold and defend her right to do what she did on many occasions, and I have sworn to do it against all enemies foreign and domestic. Does her boss have a right to fire her over it? Probably, but my understanding is that she resigned.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:00 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Doc3402
I would never dream of doing what she did, and I certainly don't condone what she did, but there is a certain irony here. Everybody is jumping in her #### because she had the nerve to exercise one of the rights so many of those buried at Arlington fought and died for. That she did it in a contemptible manner is certainly true, but it is her right under our Constitution.

Moving back to my more cynical nature, anybody want to bet she sues her former employer about a hostile work environment?
Absolutely right, Doc, on both counts. And that lawsuit could turn into 1A fight.

I'm still up in the air about the photographer being fired. Should she lose her job capturing the stupidity of others? Then everyone submitting to America's Funniest Home Videos needs to be terminated.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:26 PM   #50
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Outstanding. Somebody gets it. I personally find her act disgusting, but that doesn't matter. I have sworn to uphold and defend her right to do what she did on many occasions, and I have sworn to do it against all enemies foreign and domestic. Does her boss have a right to fire her over it? Probably, but my understanding is that she resigned.
Thanks, Doc. I wouldn't personally shed a tear if she broke her neck stumbling over an Arlington headstone (poetic justice), but the backlash seems excessive from people that pay to hear entertainers be vulgar.

You are correct - she resigned. It was probably a situation where she had that choice or termination. ;-)
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“Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." (I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.). Thomas Jefferson

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

-Edmund Burke, Loosely translated from Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents. (1770)

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