Went To The Top Of The Mountain To See What Was On The Otherside. - Page 2
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Old 04-11-2008, 09:47 PM   #11
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In reality, one man's terrorist is another man's hero.
It's all I can do to restrain myself on this issue. Explain to the mothers who watched their infants get blown to pieces that the coward piece of crap who did it was a hero. Explain to the co-workers, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, children and friends that the people they love who were gunned down or blown up in unexpected deliberate attacks on unarmed, unsuspecting civilians are heroes.

Screw that. Believe what you want. I understand good from evil, right from wrong. And the vast majority of the atrocities committed since 1948 in and around Israel have been by the arabs and the nearby states supporting them with funding, training, weaponry and ideological indoctrination.

God damn, guys.
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Old 04-12-2008, 08:13 AM   #12
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You didn't point out that since 1948, we have been supporting Israel with funding, training and weaponry.

If you think that dropping bombs from an F-16 and killing women and children is not an atrocity, then you will never understand the real problem. If you look at the body count, you will see that the ratio of Arabs to Israels is almost 5 to 1.

I do understand good from evil and right from wrong. Killing is wrong. It makes no difference which side did it. The atrocities committed by both sides are unacceptable. Is either side right - no. Are both wrong - yes. Are both sides evil - yes.

I acknowledge that both sides are wrong. I have no respect for either side.
My point exactly gentlemen, there must be compromise and dialog from both sides, and to for us in the West to make a rational and fair assessment of the position both sides will assist in bringing forward a just settlement.

At this point although I believe the people want a lasting peace, the conservative and hawkish elements on both sides are preventing a meaningful settlement.
If we are not being seen to be even handed in this process, this will be a rallying call to every dissident muslim group and we will be living with the threat for 30 years or more.
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Old 04-12-2008, 10:44 AM   #13
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You didn't point out that since 1948, we have been supporting Israel with funding, training and weaponry.
But Israel has not been using its capabilities indiscriminately to kill for the sake of killing.

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If you think that dropping bombs from an F-16 and killing women and children is not an atrocity, then you will never understand the real problem. If you look at the body count, you will see that the ratio of Arabs to Israels is almost 5 to 1.
You're sounding a bit like Jay Rockefeller to me there.

Israel launches attacks in response to attacks. Israel uses precision-guided munitions to target specific people or places; it is doing what it can given the advanced technology it has to keep civilian casualties down to a minimum.

The same cannot be said for the arabs who seek to kill as many Israelis as possible whether IDF, police, government or civilian.

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I do understand good from evil and right from wrong. Killing is wrong. It makes no difference which side did it. The atrocities committed by both sides are unacceptable. Is either side right - no. Are both wrong - yes. Are both sides evil - yes.
Killing is undesirable, but sometimes it is necessary. Murder is wrong. The arabs have been trying to murder those living in Israel since 1948. Israel has had to kill to defend itself.

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I acknowledge that both sides are wrong. I have no respect for either side.
Naturally, then, you hate Americans and the United States as much as you hate al Qaeda and other terror groups?
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Old 04-12-2008, 10:51 AM   #14
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My point exactly gentlemen, there must be compromise and dialog from both sides,
So, Israel making all of the concessions Arafat wanted wasn't enough to score a lasting peace?

(That's a trick question. No, it wasn't enough. The arabs living there, most of them, anyway, want Israel gone. Not reduced back to its original borders. Not with East Jerusalem theirs. They want Israel completely gone.

Listen to them, not me, if you don't believe me.)

Not only was conceding all to Arafat not enough, Arafat launched his Second Intifada meant to "push the Jews into the sea" and wipe Israel from the map. Hell, even the U.N. had a map on display of the area without Israel.

People who want their own country work to build one, not tear down someone else's.
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Old 04-12-2008, 01:12 PM   #15
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The Israeli administration had consistantly refused to deal with the late Arafat and the present elected administration have recognised Israel's right to exsist, but I would refer to your last comments, isn't that also true for those who have for centuries inhabited Palestine?

I know you haven't held back about your feeling and opinion of the peoples in this area of the middle east, the whole area has been carved up into states by the Western powers. This is an ancient culture with a written language that goes back 5000 years.

They see it as their country since 1948 has been illegally occupied by Israel, in not agreeing to UN resolutions, and returning to the original borders. This occuping army has disposessed their people and refused to accept returning refugees from the conflict. Their land, homes and possessions where given away to European Jewish settlers, and land is still being taken without any recourse. They see their leaders simirialy assassinated without recourse to law, and their people killed by ground incursions and air attacks. Israel has never made an agreement they have been relied upon to keep, other than they said they would resettle the occupied lands, and they have.

We can all understand that two wrongs don't make a right, but the Palestians see occupation and injustice everywhere. Even during the Intifada the IDF routinly shot unarmed people resisting by stone throwing, they even shot Western Peace Protesters! I think your support of Israeli policy is not balanced, but you are intitled to your opinion, the Palestians are also intitled to their own country, where they have lived for centuries, but unless Israel ceases it's expansionist policy this conflict will never be settled.
The Palestians have no resourses, no standing army with which to defend themselves, but they are resourceful people with strong family and clan ties, with a firm religious belief in their cause. In some way one can only respect how the average Palestian has born the last 60 years.

Who knows perhaps a way can be found to find a resolution, but frankly I would hold your breath........................

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Old 04-12-2008, 04:42 PM   #16
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The Israeli administration had consistantly refused to deal with the late Arafat
You blame them after what he did?

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and the present elected administration have recognised Israel's right to exsist, but I would refer to your last comments, isn't that also true for those who have for centuries inhabited Palestine?
Respectfully, there has never, in the history of the world, been a "Palestine". The word palestine is a Latin word given by the Romans and derived from "philistine" and was attributed to non-Jews living in that region.

The history of the region is replete with violence, subjugation and slavery. Before 1947, those living in the region had been exploited for almost 200 years by the Ottoman Empire.

Since the recreation of Israel, those living in the region have benefited as a result.

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I know you haven't held back about your feeling and opinion of the peoples in this area of the middle east,
I'm very much a live-and-let-live sort of guy. A very violent ideology propagated by hundreds of thousands of people over a huge area (in and out of the Middle East) that means to see the destruction of everyone who is not like them does concern me, yes. Hopefully, it concerns you as well.

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the whole area has been carved up into states by the Western powers. This is an ancient culture with a written language that goes back 5000 years.

They see it as their country since 1948 has been illegally occupied by Israel, in not agreeing to UN resolutions, and returning to the original borders.
Respectfully, that's revisionist crap. Israel was formed by the U.N. and Jewry from all over the world who came to live there were content to live within its borders. The attack came from outside, and the nascent Israelites responded appropriately to defend themselves. The Golan Heights, for example, were used by Syria to rain down hell on Israelis, which is why that ground was taken.

Since the first attack, there have been tens of thousands of smaller attacks carried out on a weekly (often daily) basis. Should Israel give their enemies a tactical advantage?

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This occuping army has disposessed their people and refused to accept returning refugees from the conflict. Their land, homes and possessions where given away to European Jewish settlers, and land is still being taken without any recourse.
First, control of the land was Great Britain's. Second, those living in the region have it far, far better than they did prior to the start of WWII. The opportunity exists for the creation of a new country.

But as I said earlier, and as you seem to be corroborating, their objection to Israel existing is the barrier. One of two things must happen: Israel must go away, or the objection must be eliminated.

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They see their leaders simirialy assassinated without recourse to law, and their people killed by ground incursions and air attacks.
But when countless Israeli citizens are brutally murdered at the order of these terrorist assassin pigs, that's OK with you?

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We can all understand that two wrongs don't make a right, but the Palestians see occupation and injustice everywhere.
First, there is no such thing as a "Palestinian". Second, they see occupation and injustice in order that those fomenting hatred and violence might enrich themselves.

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Even during the Intifada the IDF routinly shot unarmed people resisting by stone throwing, they even shot Western Peace Protesters! I think your support of Israeli policy is not balanced, but you are intitled to your opinion, the Palestians are also intitled to their own country, where they have lived for centuries, but unless Israel ceases it's expansionist policy this conflict will never be settled.
Nonsense. Utter crap. Israel has not been the aggressor. Every neighboring country has, however. You just got through implying how the arabs, who we in the West euphemistically call "Palestinians", are so angered that Israel exists at all, there can be no peace 'til Israel goes away and those living in refugee camps can reclaim their ancestral lands.

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The Palestians have no resourses, no standing army with which to defend themselves, but they are resourceful people with strong family and clan ties, with a firm religious belief in their cause. In some way one can only respect how the average Palestian has born the last 60 years.
That is a very alarming statement and one with which I do not agree at all.

History shows these people were terribly violent against one another prior to 1947. They were Nazi collaborators.

Why must Israel compromise when it has been attacked? Where are Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria? Why aren't they brokering a peace deal and trying to either absorb those living in the region or helping to establish a new country? Because they believe Israel should not exist at all.

So it comes down to this fundamental issue: either Israel should exist where it does, or it should not.

If the arabs put down their guns, there will be peace in the Middle East. If the Israelis put down their guns, there will be no Israel.
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Old 04-12-2008, 04:53 PM   #17
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I take great offense to this outrageous and ridiculous insult. I have served my country and bear the wounds of combat. Cowards like you never have and never will. You use the freedom that myself and others helped provide to make bogus claims.

As far as what I sound like, I would say it is the voice of reason.

You on the other hand appear to be to voice of Israel.

My comments are ruled by rational thought. On the subject of Israel and many others, you seem to be ruled by irrational emotion.

I respect your freedom of speech and press. I do not respect you as a person or a moderator. You lack basic human decency and the forum deserves better.

Let me state for the record. All of the crap you have posted in support of Israel is biased, wrong and patently evil. They are no better and no worse than the Arabs they kill.

IMHO you represent the voice of evil in the world.

You previously used the term "coward piece of crap". Now it's my turn to insult. If you want to see what one looks like, look in the mirror.
Sincerely, from the bottom of my heart, I apologize for offending you.

I am not a Jew and I have no affiliation with Israel. But I have kept current with events in the region since 2000 (which has spurred me to research some history). And while Israel has not always acted with honor, the vast majority of violence has been perpetrated against Israel by others.

To equate Israel's responses as being as wrong and evil as the unprovoked attacks is not right, in my opinion, just as those who blame the U.S. for bringing the 9/11 attacks upon itself or that fighting violent fanatics in Afghanistan and Iraq are "disproportionate" are not right.
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Old 04-13-2008, 08:12 AM   #18
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You blame them after what he did?

Why not we had a political settlement in Northern Ireland. Two of the senior ministers there where once active mebers of the Provisional IRA. One is Duputy First Minister former head of the Provo Army Council. I have personal experience of their activities.....



[B]I'm very much a live-and-let-live sort of guy. A very violent ideology propagated by hundreds of thousands of people over a huge area (in and out of the Middle East) that means to see the destruction of everyone who is not like them does concern me, yes. Hopefully, it concerns you as well.[/

Dosn't sound like from your tone.


Respectfully, that's revisionist crap. Israel was formed by the U.N. and Jewry from all over the world who came to live there were content to live within its borders. The attack came from outside, and the nascent Israelites responded appropriately to defend themselves. The Golan Heights, for example, were used by Syria to rain down hell on Israelis, which is why that ground was taken.

They responded to the call to settle in what they consider their Biblical home after the second world war!

Since the first attack, there have been tens of thousands of smaller attacks carried out on a weekly (often daily) basis. Should Israel give their enemies a tactical advantage?

I refer to my earlier comments

First, control of the land was Great Britain's. Second, those living in the region have it far, far better than they did prior to the start of WWII. The opportunity exists for the creation of a new country.

I disagree

But as I said earlier, and as you seem to be corroborating, their objection to Israel existing is the barrier. One of two things must happen: Israel must go away, or the objection must be eliminated.

No I repeat the Palestian Authority, elected by the people of Palestine have accepted in principle Israel's right to exsist. I can't be plainer than that, Hamas take a different view but they will eventually be marginalised in the region.

But when countless Israeli citizens are brutally murdered at the order of these terrorist assassin pigs, that's OK with you?

A discussion is one thing by I am insulted and outraged with this comment. It is completely inconsistant with my statements and views. I have served for many years dealing with terriorist outrages, and still handle explosive detector dogs at high risk venues. My occupation brings me into the top five prefered terrorist targets, I can assure you that it is not OK for me......

First, there is no such thing as a "Palestinian". Second, they see occupation and injustice in order that those fomenting hatred and violence might enrich themselves.

Rubbish, they are people who have expectation and dreams just like everyone else. I have found them to be outgoing kind and generous.

Nonsense. Utter crap. Israel has not been the aggressor. Every neighboring country has, however. You just got through implying how the arabs, who we in the West euphemistically call "Palestinians", are so angered that Israel exists at all, there can be no peace 'til Israel goes away and those living in refugee camps can reclaim their ancestral lands.

Already addressed

.

History shows these people were terribly violent against one another prior to 1947. They were Nazi collaborators.

See Sterling's Long Range Desert Group.

Why must Israel compromise when it has been attacked? Where are Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria? Why aren't they brokering a peace deal and trying to either absorb those living in the region or helping to establish a new country? Because they believe Israel should not exist at all.
So it comes down to this fundamental issue: either Israel should exist where it does, or it should not.

Because compremise is how the political agenda moves forward, not through the barrel of a gun! Once again you are repeating yourself and I might add Israeli propoganda..........

[i]If the arabs put down their guns, there will be peace in the Middle East. If the Israelis put down their guns, there will be no Israel.[/i]


Why would they do that? If the Israelis moved to their rightful established borders then the Palestians would have no excuse but too comply, or face the wrath of not just the Israelis but also the International community.

I fundimentally disagree with your position, but you are intitiled to your view, but I am disapointed none the less at some of your personal comments to me....
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Old 04-13-2008, 12:44 PM   #19
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I fundimentally disagree with your position, but you are intitiled to your view,
Ditto.

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but I am disapointed none the less at some of your personal comments to me....
Yes, well, I'm disappointed with the nature of the arguments.

Maybe you're right and all Israel need do is return to its original borders as established in 1948. I'm sure Olmert will oblige at some point. We'll see then whether or not the violence subsides.
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Old 04-13-2008, 12:50 PM   #20
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Don't hold your breath.................

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