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Old 08-30-2012, 09:28 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by WebleyFosbery38 View Post
Long story, skip it if your not ready to really think for a second after reading it!

I respect LEO's service and commitment, they deserve descent pay commensurate with the Risk, Training and Prerequisites for getting the job. Here comes the "But" compare them with another group that has 10X more Death, Suicide, Life Disruption, Divorce, TBI, Mental Illness and has about the same career span. The US Service Member.


rank <2 >2 >3 <4 <6
E-7 2725 2974 3088 3239 3357
E-6 2357 2594 2708 2819 2935
E-5 2159 2304 2416 2530 2707
E-4 1980 2081 2194 2305 2403
E-3 1787 1900 2015 2015 2015
E-2 1700 1700 1700 1700 1700
E-1 1516 1516 1516 1516 1516

$1516 a month to start, try to take care of your wife and 2 kids on that Private Snuffy! If I hadnt retired years ago, I would now be making a Base pay of a whopping $3357 a month! Lets see here, a little quick math- I would be making 40K a year at my Max as an E-7, Anti Armor Platoon Sergeant at 21 years! My job description-

The heavy anti--armor weapons infantrymman leads or serves as a member of a crew-served weapon squad, section, or platoon employing heavy anti--armor crew-served weapons in offensive and defensive combat operations. Duties for MOS 11H at each level of skill are:

(1) Skill Level 1. Assaults and destroys enemy tanks and armor vehicles, emplacements, weapons, and personnel with heavy anti- armor weapons. Employs, fires, and recovers antipersonnel and anti tank mines. Locates and neutralizes mines. Operates, mounts/dismounts, zeroes and engages targets with night vision sight. Performs self extraction from a mine field. Orients a map. Operates and maintains communications equipment and enter a radio net. Operates in an NBC contaminated area. Constructs and camouflages individual/crew served weapons firing positions. Recognizes friendly and threat armored vehicles. Constructs and camouflages dismounted fighting positions.

(2) Skill Level 2. Performs duties shown in preceding level of skill. Leads a heavy anti-armor weapons squad in combat opera tions. Provides tactical and technical guidance to subordinates and professional support to both subordinates and superiors in the accomplishment of their duties. Leads, supervises and trains subordinate personnel. Calls for adjusting indirect fire. Evaluates terrain and selects weapon emplacement. Installs and recovers electrical and non-electrical demolition charges. Records operational information on maps. Indicates location, strength, tactical deployment, and emplacement of enemy and friendly units. Receives and implements a combat order; directs deployment of personnel on offensive, de fensive, and retrograde operations. Conducts battle damage assessment and repair. Knows threat formations and tactics thru battalion sise elements. Prepares, operates, and maintains secure communications equipment.

(3) Skill Level 3. Performs duties shown in preceding level of skill. Leads a heavy anti-armor weapons section in combat opera tions. Provides tactical and technical guidance to subordinates and professional support to both subordinates and superiors in the accomplishment of their duties. Receives and issues orders. Supervises the tactical deployment of the TOW section during offensive, defensive, and retrograde operations. Ensures collection and proper repor ting of intelligence data to the unit. Prepares an anti-armor section sketch.

(4) Skill Level 4. Performs duties shown in preceding level of skill. Supervises heavy anti-armor weapons platoon. Provides tacti cal and technical guidance to subordinates and professional support to both subordinates and superiors in the accomplishment of their duties. Supervises the occupation of an assembly area. Plans for, supervises preparation of, and conducts NBC operations. Develops a platoon training plan. Knows threat organization and tactics thru regiment level. Plans for, coordinates resources for, and sets up a multipurpose range complex for TOW qualifications exercises.
Army Pam 611-21

Skill Level one (Private Snuffy with 16 weeks Basic and AIT Minimum) is the equivalent of a fully qualified New York State Trooper' in duty and job performance. They earn-

$50,374 - Starting salary (during Academy training)
$61,525 - Upon graduation from the Academy
$65,358 - After one year
$77,218 - After five years

Before we worry about LEO's surviving on a $50K retirement after 20, maybe we ought to think about the sons and daughters that are being thrown at Terrorists with IED's like confetti everyday before the violins start playing for someone that gets paid overtime if they work a political event after hours! We pay GI's garbageman wages yet call them our Best, Bravest and Brightest, National hero's!!!

JUST SAYIN!!!!!
Apples to oranges. Look at the NYSP site. 60 hours of college required to be a trooper. Not a lot of enlisted personnel in the Army with 60 hours of college. Get your facts straight before you pop off at the mouth.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:07 PM   #12
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Not so fast Robocop, I wasnt bashing Officers, I was pointing to an obvious disparity that goes unrecognized daily. Im having a hard time feeling sad about troopers to be getting paid 50K before they even qualify to be a Trooper. Apples and Oranges huh? Is that any way to refer to your brothers in arms; real arm, big bad and dangerous ones? Or maybe the Ones that come back with no arms or legs deserve to feed their families off of the $4.50 and hour we so generously pay a Service Member the Day they head off to boot camp then Afghanistan.

What the hell does 60 hours of college have to do with anything an Infantry Ground-pounder has to train for? By the time that crunchy makes his E-5 he will have thousands of hours of Technical, Tactical and Leadership training and actually led a squad of Soldiers. Without my College credits I have a Bachelors degree just from military training.

So instead I will bring in more info! Lieutenants, Commisioned Officers and Warrents must have a degree before they attend OCS or WO School, this is their pay-

Years of service----<2----------4----------<6
Second Lt (O1)---$33,941--- $42,703----$42,703
First Lt (O2)------$39,103--- $53,024----$54,115
Captain (O3)----- $45,256--- $60,372----$63,263
Major (O4)--------$51,473---$64,447----$68,137

Is that better, now its apples to apples, these are educated guys and gals? I guess us Dumb NCO's dont matter to highly trained and edumacated Officers like yourself!

Pop off at the mouth, was a bit terse wouldn't you say?

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Old 08-30-2012, 11:15 PM   #13
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I will not say that our military men and women are paid a fair wage. They deserve far more that they currently get.

Edumacated? I still do not see any reference to LEO's in the pensions. Terse. You bet your azz it was. It was intended to be. I see pensions for teachers. professors and administators. Why the LE reference here? This does not appear to be LE related at all.

You want to compare the pensions? Compare the pensions of Colonels and Generals to the administrators. I'll be we start seeing Apples to Apples.

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Old 08-31-2012, 12:09 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by robocop10mm View Post
I will not say that our military men and women are paid a fair wage. They deserve far more that they currently get.

Edumacated? I still do not see any reference to LEO's in the pensions. Terse. You bet your azz it was. It was intended to be. I see pensions for teachers. professors and administators. Why the LE reference here? This does not appear to be LE related at all.

You want to compare the pensions? Compare the pensions of Colonels and Generals to the administrators. I'll be we start seeing Apples to Apples.
The Generals and Coronals dont make what you might think. A Major General pulls in a clean 120K, mind you, there are only 230 General Grade Officers in the entire US Army, and only 203 ea 4 star and 4 ea 5 star Generals in the history of the United States Army. Most 1 Stars command a force twice the size of the NYPD. What do you think Ray Kelly gets paid?


-------<2------------------------->6
O-8 9848 -10170-10384-10444-10711
O-7 8182 -8563--8739---8878--8132
O-6 6065 -6663-7100----7100--7127
O-5 5056 -5696-6090----6164--6410

Dont even get me going on PHD's, I have worked at a world renowned University for 18 years. They are generally a bunch of spineless,pPompous, arrogant, overpaid and disrespectful kids that never left school, "so called enlightened liberals".

Robo, Ive got no problem with Police officers making a good living. Everyone of them that I know do make a solid living plus. Times are tight, budgets are squashed and even local PD's are choosing to lay off before anything else. When I hear folks get chummed about pay and see nothing about those that are dying to protect us at home, it tweaks my gourd. I had E-4s that qualified for food-stamps and HEAP and E-5s that couldnt afford to pay their car payments. Its not much better ten years. later.
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Old 08-31-2012, 01:09 AM   #15
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Here's an article on Illinois pensions. Most of the top-paid 100(state employee) pensioners are LEO's!!
http://www.taxpayersunitedofamerica.org/latest/illinois-govt-pensions-over-100000-up-27-since-last-year

“In the State Employees’ Retirement System (SERS), 84 of the top 100 are retired State Troopers, including 28 troopers who retired at age 50 and are getting over $100,000 a year.”
No, you've misquoted the article: the highest paid pensioners on the list are almost all on the University Retirement system (SURS) - NOT the State Employee system (SERS). According to the article, LEOs do make up most the top of the SERS list, but not the entire combined Illinois state pension list.
Whether they deserve these pensions or not is a debate I'm staying the he!! out of.
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Old 08-31-2012, 04:22 PM   #16
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...that LEO's are somehow the beneficiaries of golden parachutes.
Dang! Robo would need a huuuuuuuuuge parachute if he went skydiving.
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Old 08-31-2012, 04:34 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by WebleyFosbery38 View Post
Long story, skip it if your not ready to really think for a second after reading it!

I respect LEO's service and commitment, they deserve descent pay commensurate with the Risk, Training and Prerequisites for getting the job. Here comes the "But" compare them with another group that has 10X more Death, Suicide, Life Disruption, Divorce, TBI, Mental Illness and has about the same career span. The US Service Member.


rank <2 >2 >3 <4 <6
E-7 2725 2974 3088 3239 3357
E-6 2357 2594 2708 2819 2935
E-5 2159 2304 2416 2530 2707
E-4 1980 2081 2194 2305 2403
E-3 1787 1900 2015 2015 2015
E-2 1700 1700 1700 1700 1700
E-1 1516 1516 1516 1516 1516

$1516 a month to start, try to take care of your wife and 2 kids on that Private Snuffy! If I hadnt retired years ago, I would now be making a Base pay of a whopping $3357 a month! Lets see here, a little quick math- I would be making 40K a year at my Max as an E-7, Anti Armor Platoon Sergeant at 21 years! My job description-

The heavy anti--armor weapons infantrymman leads or serves as a member of a crew-served weapon squad, section, or platoon employing heavy anti--armor crew-served weapons in offensive and defensive combat operations. Duties for MOS 11H at each level of skill are:

(1) Skill Level 1. Assaults and destroys enemy tanks and armor vehicles, emplacements, weapons, and personnel with heavy anti- armor weapons. Employs, fires, and recovers antipersonnel and anti tank mines. Locates and neutralizes mines. Operates, mounts/dismounts, zeroes and engages targets with night vision sight. Performs self extraction from a mine field. Orients a map. Operates and maintains communications equipment and enter a radio net. Operates in an NBC contaminated area. Constructs and camouflages individual/crew served weapons firing positions. Recognizes friendly and threat armored vehicles. Constructs and camouflages dismounted fighting positions.

(2) Skill Level 2. Performs duties shown in preceding level of skill. Leads a heavy anti-armor weapons squad in combat opera tions. Provides tactical and technical guidance to subordinates and professional support to both subordinates and superiors in the accomplishment of their duties. Leads, supervises and trains subordinate personnel. Calls for adjusting indirect fire. Evaluates terrain and selects weapon emplacement. Installs and recovers electrical and non-electrical demolition charges. Records operational information on maps. Indicates location, strength, tactical deployment, and emplacement of enemy and friendly units. Receives and implements a combat order; directs deployment of personnel on offensive, de fensive, and retrograde operations. Conducts battle damage assessment and repair. Knows threat formations and tactics thru battalion sise elements. Prepares, operates, and maintains secure communications equipment.

(3) Skill Level 3. Performs duties shown in preceding level of skill. Leads a heavy anti-armor weapons section in combat opera tions. Provides tactical and technical guidance to subordinates and professional support to both subordinates and superiors in the accomplishment of their duties. Receives and issues orders. Supervises the tactical deployment of the TOW section during offensive, defensive, and retrograde operations. Ensures collection and proper repor ting of intelligence data to the unit. Prepares an anti-armor section sketch.

(4) Skill Level 4. Performs duties shown in preceding level of skill. Supervises heavy anti-armor weapons platoon. Provides tacti cal and technical guidance to subordinates and professional support to both subordinates and superiors in the accomplishment of their duties. Supervises the occupation of an assembly area. Plans for, supervises preparation of, and conducts NBC operations. Develops a platoon training plan. Knows threat organization and tactics thru regiment level. Plans for, coordinates resources for, and sets up a multipurpose range complex for TOW qualifications exercises.
Army Pam 611-21

Skill Level one (Private Snuffy with 16 weeks Basic and AIT Minimum) is the equivalent of a fully qualified New York State Trooper' in duty and job performance. They earn-

$50,374 - Starting salary (during Academy training)
$61,525 - Upon graduation from the Academy $65,358 - After one year
$77,218 - After five years

Before we worry about LEO's surviving on a $50K retirement after 20, maybe we ought to think about the sons and daughters that are being thrown at Terrorists with IED's like confetti everyday before the violins start playing for someone that gets paid overtime if they work a political event after hours! We pay GI's garbageman wages yet call them our Best, Bravest and Brightest, National hero's!!!

JUST SAYIN!!!!!
Bingo...

Given what I've seen in recent LEO performance I'd say the term "Underpaid LEO's" qualifies as the Oxymoron of th day!

Tack
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:11 PM   #18
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I am not saying LEO's shouldnt be taken care of but lets face it, if you ask any government employee, they will all say much the same. More money! Its also a bad idea to pay Public Servants more as an incentive not to break the law, if they cant do the job without illegal income, they shouldnt be doing it and when we find one breaking the rules, they need to be publicly excoriated and kicked to the curb.

A custodian in The white house is making 50K, an Infantry Platoon Sergent in Afghanistan is making less and their retirement is much less.

I looked at the White House Staff salaries a couple months ago, you should see the numbers, it would make you sick.


True, but I can imagine cost of living in DC is very high. You'll find the same situation in NYC with wages higher than just about anywhere, but rent & transportation is not affordable by some which may be making double what folks in other parts of the country make for the same job.

As to the retirement of these LEOs, if it is set up properly the fund is self sustainable through interest it earns. It is when the bimbos in charge start dipping into it to pay for other things that it becomes a problem. Our Social Security program is a prime example. If it'd been handled properly from the beginning, we would not be having it's bankruptcy hanging over our heads now.
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:41 PM   #19
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True, but I can imagine cost of living in DC is very high. You'll find the same situation in NYC with wages higher than just about anywhere, but rent & transportation is not affordable by some which may be making double what folks in other parts of the country make for the same job.

As to the retirement of these LEOs, if it is set up properly the fund is self sustainable through interest it earns. It is when the bimbos in charge start dipping into it to pay for other things that it becomes a problem. Our Social Security program is a prime example. If it'd been handled properly from the beginning, we would not be having it's bankruptcy hanging over our heads now.
I bet its not cheap, wonder how the thousands of Military folks working in the Pentagon afford it. The Majors and above probably not bad nbut Buck Sgt and below gotta suck, especially with a family. We have military living in the most expensive and the cheapest places in the nation.

NY's retirement plans are somewhat sound at the moment but districts, (Mostly cities) in NY are nearing bankruptcy, Utica and Syracuse are both sucking wind. Our budgets keep increasing yet our population is decreasing. Its not the poor leaving, its the MCers and the Rich. Im not under any illusion that the Feds will ever pay our Military what they deserve or even close but Im pretty sure a SFC deserves to earn more than a custodian.
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:07 PM   #20
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Dang! Robo would need a huuuuuuuuuge parachute if he went skydiving.
I have ABSOLUTELY NO DESIRE to jump out of a perfectly good airplane. I would rather go into a dark warehouse in search of an armed suspect, by myself (oh wait, I've done that), than go skydiving.
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