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Ryel 10-09-2010 06:26 PM

I am new and don't know much about guns. I have not found an area that discusses language and what terms mean. For example, one person mentioned that his rifle "stovepiped". What does that mean?

would it be worthwhile to have a thread about what terms mean?

danf_fl 10-09-2010 06:33 PM

A stovepipe is a Failure To Eject (FTE) jam that the mechanism failed to eject the casing away from the firearm prior to the bolt coming forward and the bolt "catches" the casing in an upright position, with the opening of the casing pointed upwards.

As you go through the threads, don't be afraid to ask questions in the post. The only dumb question is the one that was not asked.

Highpower 10-09-2010 08:39 PM

Here are a few pointers to get you started:


Gun shows are an old and honored American tradition. The basic idea-putting
sellers, buyers, and stock in the same room and letting Free Market Forces
go to work-is as old as commerce, but the American form of gun show has
evolved its own manners, vocabulary, and etiquette.

Gun shows are run by and for dreamers. Every dealer who sets up a table
seems to think that the people who attend are half-wits who will happily
pay 25% more than manufacturer's suggested retail price for their goods; and
all the attendees hold it as an article of faith that the exhibitors are
desperate men who have come in the hopes of finally disposing of their stock

at 30% less than wholesale cost.

In this environment it helps to have some idea what to expect; so for the
benefit of those who are so unfortunate as never to have experienced this
distinctively American form of mass entertainment, I offer this guide, the
summation of what I've learned from 30 years of show-going. I've included a
glossary of terms you'll need to know, and an introduction to some of the
people you'll meet.


The following terms apply to items offered for sale:

MINT CONDITION: In original condition as manufactured, unfired, and
preferably in the original box with all manufacturer's tags, labels, and

NEAR-MINT CONDITION: Has had no more than 5,000 rounds fired through it and
it still retains at least 60% of the original finish. Surface pitting is no
more than 1/8" deep, and both grip panels are in place. If it is a .22, some
of the rifling is still visible.

VERY GOOD: Non-functional when you buy it, but you can probably get it to
work if you replace 100% of the parts.

FAIR: Rusted into a solid mass with a shape vaguely reminiscent of a firearm.

TIGHT: In revolvers, the cylinder swings out, but you need two hands to
close it again. For autoloaders, you must bang the front of the slide on a
table to push it back.

REALLY TIGHT: In revolvers you cannot open the cylinder without a lever.
Once it's open the extractor rod gets stuck halfway through its travel. On
autoloaders, you need a hammer to close the slide.

A LITTLE LOOSE: In revolvers, the cylinder falls out and the chambers are
1/4" out of line when locked up. There is no more than 1/2" of end play.
For autoloaders, the barrel falls out when the slide is retracted. If the
barrel stays in place, the slide falls off.

GOOD BORE: You can tell it was once rifled and even approximately how many
grooves there were.

FAIR BORE: Probably would be similar to GOOD BORE, if you could see through it.

NEEDS A LITTLE WORK: May function sometimes if you have a gunsmith replace
minor parts, such as the bolt, cylinder, or barrel.

ARSENAL RECONDITIONED: I cleaned it up with a wire wheel and some stuff I
bought at K-Mart.

ANTIQUE: I found it in a barn, and I think it dates from before 1960. Note
that ANTIQUE guns are usually found in FAIR condition.

RARE VARIANT: No more than 500,000 of this model were ever made, not
counting the ones produced before serial numbers were required. Invariably,
RARE VARIANTS command a premium price of 150% of BOOK VALUE.

BOOK VALUE: An ill-defined number that dealers consider insultingly low and
buyers ridiculously high. Since no one pays any attention to it, it doesn't
matter who is right.

IT BELONGED TO MY GRANDFATHER: I bought it at a flea market or yard sale
two weeks ago.

CIVIL WAR RELIC: The vendor's great-grandfather knew a man whose friend
once said he had been in the Civil War.

SHOOTS REAL GOOD: For rifles, this means at 100 yards it will put every
shot into a 14" circle if there isn't any wind and you're using a machine
For handguns, three out of six rounds will impact a silhouette target at
seven yards. In shotguns, it means that the full choke tube throws 60%
patterns with holes no larger than 8" in them.

ON CONSIGNMENT: The vendor at the show does not own the gun. It belongs
to a friend, customer, or business associate, and he has been instructed to
sell it, for which he will be paid a commission. He has no authority to discuss
price. The price marked is 50% above BOOK VALUE. All used guns offered for
sale at gun shows, without exception, are ON CONSIGNMENT, and the dealer is
required by his Code of Ethics to tell you this as soon as you ask the
price. (A BATF study has proven that since 1934 there has never been a
single authenticated case of a used gun being offered for sale at a gun
show that was actually owned by the dealer showing it.)

I'LL LET IT GO FOR WHAT I HAVE IN IT: I'll settle for what I paid for it
plus a 250% profit.

MAKE ME AN OFFER: How dumb are you?

TELL ME HOW MUCH IT'S WORTH TO YOU: I'll bet you're even dumber than you


RAMBO: He's looking for an Ingram MAC-10, and wants to have it custom
chambered in .44 Magnum as a back-up gun. For primary carry he wants a
Desert Eagle, provided he can get it custom chambered in .50 BMG. He
derides the .50 Action Express as a wimp round designed for ladies' pocket
pistols. He has already bought three years' worth of freeze-dried MRE's from
MARK, as well as seven knives. He is dressed in camouflage BDU's and a black
T-shirt with the 101st Airborne Division insignia, though he has never been in the
Army. He works as a bag boy at Kroger's.

BUBBA: He needs some money, and has reluctantly decided to sell his Daddy's
.30-30, a Marlin 336 made in 1961. He indignantly refuses all cash offers
below his asking price of $475. Unable to sell it, eventually he trades it
plus another $175 for a new-in-box H&R Topper in .219 Zipper. He feels
pretty good about the deal.

GORDON: He is walking the aisles with a Remington Model 700 ADL in
.30-06 on his shoulder. He's put an Uncle Mike's cordura sling and a Tasco
3x9 variable scope on it. A small stick protrudes from the barrel, bearing the
words, "LIKE NEW ONLY THREE BOXES SHELLS FIRED $800." This is his third
trip to a show with this particular rifle, which he has never actually used,
since he lives in a shotgun-only area for deer.

DAWN: She is here with her boyfriend, DARRYL. At the last show, DARRYL
bought her a Taurus Model 66 in .357 Magnum. She fired it twice and is
afraid of it, but at DARRYL'S insistence she keeps it in a box on the top
shelf of her clothes closet in case someone breaks in. She is dressed in a
pair of blue jeans that came out of a spray can, a "Soldier of Fortune"
T-shirt two sizes too small, and 4" high heels. DARRYL is ignoring her, but
nobody else is.

DARRYL: He has been engaged to DAWN for three years. He likes shotguns for
defense, and he's frustrated that he can't get a Street Sweeper anymore. So
he's bought a Mossberg 500 with the 18-1/2" barrel, a perforated handguard,
and a pistol grip. He plans to use it for squirrel hunting when he isn't
sleeping with it. He plans to marry DAWN as soon as he gets a job which
pays him enough to take over the payments on her mobile home. His parole
officer has no idea where he is at the moment.

ARNOLD: He is a car salesman in Charlottesville, Virginia. He has a passion
for Civil War guns, especially cap-and-ball revolvers. He has a
reproduction Remington 1858, and is looking for a real one he can afford. He
owns two other guns: a S&W Model 60 and a Sauer & Sohn drilling with Luftwaffe
markings that his grandfather brought home in 1945. He has no idea what
caliber the rifle barrel on his drilling is, and he last fired the Model 60
five years ago.

DICK: He is a gun dealer who makes his overhead selling Jennings J-25's,
Lorcin .380's, and H&R top-break revolvers. He buys the J-25's in lots of
1000 direct from the factory at $28.75 each, and sells them for $68.00 to
gun show customers. He buys the H&R's for $10 at estate auctions and asks
$85 for them, letting you talk him down to $78 when he is feeling generous.
His records are meticulously kept: he insists on proper ID and a signature
on the 4473, but he doesn't mind if the ID and the signature aren't yours.
Other than his stock, he owns no guns and he has no interest in them.

ARLENE: She is DICK's wife. She hates guns and gun shows more than anything
in the world. Her husband insists that she accompany him to keep an eye on
the table when he's dickering or has to go to the men's room. She
refuses to come unless she can bring her SONY portable TV, even though she
gets lousy reception in the Civic Center and there isn't any cable. When DICK is away
from the table, she has no authority to negotiate, and demands full asking
price for everything. She doesn't know the difference between a rifle and a
shotgun, and what's more, she doesn't care.

MARK: He doesn't have an FFL. He buys a table at the show to sell nylon
holsters, magazines, T-shirts, bumper stickers, fake Nazi regalia, surplus
web gear, MRE's and accessories. He makes more money than anyone else in
the hall.

ALAN: He's not a dealer, but he had a bunch of odds and ends to dispose of,
so he bought a table. On it he displays used loading dies in 7.65 Belgian
and .25-20, both in boxes from the original Herter's company. He also has a
half-box of .38-55 cartridges, a Western-style gun belt he hasn't been able
to wear since 1978, a used cleaning kit, and a nickel-plated Iver Johnson
Premier revolver in .32 S&W. He's asking $125 for the gun and $40 for each
of the die sets. He paid $35 for the table and figures he needs to get at
least that much to cover his expenses and the value of his time.

GERALD: He's a physician specializing in diseases of the rich. He collects
Brownings, and specializes in High-Power pistols, Superposed shotguns, and
Model 1900's. He has 98% of the known variations of each of these, and now
plans to branch out into the 1906 and 1910 pocket pistols. He owns no
handguns made after the Germans left Liege in 1944. He regards
Japanese-made "Brownings" as a personal insult and is a little contemptuous of Inglis-made
High-Powers. He does not hunt or shoot. He buys all his gun accessories
from Orvis and Dunn's.

KEVIN: He is 13, and this is his first gun show. His eyes are bugged out
with amazement, and he wonders what his J.C. Higgins single-shot
20-gauge is worth. His father gives him an advance on his allowance so he
can buy a used Remington Nylon 66. He's hooked for life and will end up on the NRA's
Board of Directors.

BunnyWabbit 10-09-2010 10:13 PM

OMG, that is hysterical. But you forgot to add a paragraph about women coming in by themselves looking for a gun. We all don't have to be trailer park trash dating convicts.

I go in, knowing what the particular gun I want is selling for. Usually have a printout from in my purse and have no issues pulling it out when a dealer is trying to convince me I am out of my mind what I offered for the gun. What is even funnier, is I usually get approved for purchase when they call it in before some of the men. And I am usually told I may have to come back in a week to pick it up. I don't tell anyone I have a conceal carry license and a lot of time will play stupid just to see how far some dealer is trying to stick me on a price.

Highpower 10-09-2010 10:48 PM


Originally Posted by BunnyWabbit (Post 365707)
We all don't have to be trailer park trash dating convicts.

As evidenced by all the fine wimmens of FTF. ;)

Well -- not sure if Tango's love interest is still around.... :rolleyes:
(Did I type that out loud???)

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