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Old 07-30-2012, 06:06 AM   #21
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As trip has pointed out there was 4 confirmed soldiers in that room. That IS your average ccw holder now. You people need to learn a few facts. Facts like 1/3 of every group of people chosen at random is a former soldier. That soldier is a very good possibility of being a marksman qualified marine. So there for if they had been armed then that stupid sob would be dead instead of trying to get off on a plea of insanity. Discussion should be closed on that fact but it wont be.

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Old 07-30-2012, 07:22 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by vincent View Post
a CCW carrier who's roscoe was in the car...
Mine got confiscated at the local court house
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Old 07-30-2012, 02:25 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by trip286 View Post
The comparison...
Average azzhole attempting mass murder...
Average citizen with a ccw permit...
My bet is on the average citizen with a permit, and I'll tell you why in a couple of very simple and easy to understand statements.
Those of us who like guns, generally like SHOOTING guns, therefore, likely have more practice.
Last count I heard there were at least 4 military personnel in the theater (I think there were more than that). Everyone in the military goes through some type of marksmanship training.
Not every sailor is a rifleman, I know, but still...
Also, mass murdering azzhole is looking for easy targets. Do any of these people EVER attack a gun free zone because they think someone is actually going to fight back? Hell no. He would have paused at the least, and fallen down into the fetal position crapping his pants at the most, with THE VERY FIRST round coming back at him.

He was untrained. The fact that he had four guns on him screams that to me like a banshee.
I'm not against CCW, hell I carry every day when I'm not going on base, but I don't agree with the statement CCW would of ended this with less loss of life. Here are a few counter points that I'll keep simple to understand!

1. Shooting in the dark is difficult under the best circumstances, this obviously wasn't those best circumstances what with the smoke or tear gas. When was the last time you fired in the dark?

2. Obviously people like that would hit soft targets rather than say a gun store, and I agree that GFZs are counter-productive to safety, but just because it's a place you can carry doesn't mean it'd be the best place to get in a gun fight.

3. You're making one hell of an assumption there that the shooting back would cause him to pause. I think it's more likely dude was tunnel visioned because like you said, he was an idiot and didn't train himself to keep his head on a swivel, and with him being near deaf (I'm assuming he wasn't wearing ear pro) from all the gunfire, he might not of heard himself being shot at.


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Facts like 1/3 of every group of people chosen at random is a former soldier.
Uh... There are roughly 21 million vets in the US. That's less than 10%. Before you suggest I learn facts, you should actually have the information to back it up. Unless of course you're very good at choosing people at random, but that's neither here nor there.

My source for veteran numbers: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/veteranscensus1.html

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That soldier is a very good possibility of being a marksman qualified marine.
The UMSC is one of the two smallest (I don't remember off the top of my head which is smaller between them and the Coast Guard), so the odds would be AGAINST it.

Just because you're in the military and have shot weapons on a range (even at a night fire where you've got NODs and IR lasers for aiming) doesn't mean you'll react correctly in an active shooter scenario when you've been gassed.

Just because "Every Marine/Soldier is a rifleman" doesn't mean they're combat arms who's sole job is to be effective at killing people.

Once again, I'm not saying that CCW is wrong or anything, what I am saying is react as the situation dictates, and in this situation unless you were 100% sure of your ability to provide effective fire, you would be better off not shooting.
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Old 07-30-2012, 03:09 PM   #24
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Gopher, do you really think that this azzhole, who was untrained, and dealing with the very same conditions that everyone else was, would not in the very least be affected by muzzle flashes and bullets coming back his way?

I won't say that he would have just been killed outright because everyone with a carry permit is a high tech tactical competition shooter, but if he even paused, sparing one innocent life, it's a win.

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Old 07-30-2012, 03:25 PM   #25
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Guys we could argue this till Jesus takes us home, it's pointless. We'll never know, some of us think we could have helped while others don't think so, no biggie.

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Old 07-30-2012, 03:40 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubergopher

I'm not against CCW, hell I carry every day when I'm not going on base, but I don't agree with the statement CCW would of ended this with less loss of life. Here are a few counter points that I'll keep simple to understand!

1. Shooting in the dark is difficult under the best circumstances, this obviously wasn't those best circumstances what with the smoke or tear gas. When was the last time you fired in the dark?

2. Obviously people like that would hit soft targets rather than say a gun store, and I agree that GFZs are counter-productive to safety, but just because it's a place you can carry doesn't mean it'd be the best place to get in a gun fight.

3. You're making one hell of an assumption there that the shooting back would cause him to pause. I think it's more likely dude was tunnel visioned because like you said, he was an idiot and didn't train himself to keep his head on a swivel, and with him being near deaf (I'm assuming he wasn't wearing ear pro) from all the gunfire, he might not of heard himself being shot at.

Uh... There are roughly 21 million vets in the US. That's less than 10%. Before you suggest I learn facts, you should actually have the information to back it up. Unless of course you're very good at choosing people at random, but that's neither here nor there.

My source for veteran numbers: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/veteranscensus1.html

The UMSC is one of the two smallest (I don't remember off the top of my head which is smaller between them and the Coast Guard), so the odds would be AGAINST it.

Just because you're in the military and have shot weapons on a range (even at a night fire where you've got NODs and IR lasers for aiming) doesn't mean you'll react correctly in an active shooter scenario when you've been gassed.

Just because "Every Marine/Soldier is a rifleman" doesn't mean they're combat arms who's sole job is to be effective at killing people.

Once again, I'm not saying that CCW is wrong or anything, what I am saying is react as the situation dictates, and in this situation unless you were 100% sure of your ability to provide effective fire, you would be better off not shooting.
"unless you were 100% sure of your ability to provide effective fire, you would be better off not shooting"

That sounds like an anti-gun libtard statement to me

Whose to say that once this azzhole started hearing incoming fire his way, that he wouldnt cease firing and head for the exit? Even if he stopped shooting for a few seconds, thats still less bullets hitting innocent people, if your in the military then you should know the concept of "suppressive fire". Nobody knows what the definate outcome is gonna be during an incident like this, we just have to rely on our training,stay as calm as possible, and shoot to stop the threat. I would rather people be beside me shooting back,at the least disrupting the shooters cocentration and buying everyone some time to get to safety,than not shooting at all. I am confident that if there were CCW holders inside that theater, that the casulty rate would have been lower.
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Old 07-30-2012, 04:05 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ubergopher View Post
I am curious how your average CCW carrier would fare against being shot at with an AR-15, in a dark, smoke filled room full of people who are in various states of panic...
I'd much rather be killed while advancing on and firing on evil rather than while fleeing from it...

And I'd stand my pistol and 6 years of Infantry Training up against his body armor and 4 years med school any day of the week.

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Old 07-30-2012, 04:15 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubergopher

I'm not against CCW, hell I carry every day when I'm not going on base, but I don't agree with the statement CCW would of ended this with less loss of life. Here are a few counter points that I'll keep simple to understand!

1. Shooting in the dark is difficult under the best circumstances, this obviously wasn't those best circumstances what with the smoke or tear gas. When was the last time you fired in the dark?

2. Obviously people like that would hit soft targets rather than say a gun store, and I agree that GFZs are counter-productive to safety, but just because it's a place you can carry doesn't mean it'd be the best place to get in a gun fight.

3. You're making one hell of an assumption there that the shooting back would cause him to pause. I think it's more likely dude was tunnel visioned because like you said, he was an idiot and didn't train himself to keep his head on a swivel, and with him being near deaf (I'm assuming he wasn't wearing ear pro) from all the gunfire, he might not of heard himself being shot at.

Uh... There are roughly 21 million vets in the US. That's less than 10%. Before you suggest I learn facts, you should actually have the information to back it up. Unless of course you're very good at choosing people at random, but that's neither here nor there.

My source for veteran numbers: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/veteranscensus1.html

The UMSC is one of the two smallest (I don't remember off the top of my head which is smaller between them and the Coast Guard), so the odds would be AGAINST it.

Just because you're in the military and have shot weapons on a range (even at a night fire where you've got NODs and IR lasers for aiming) doesn't mean you'll react correctly in an active shooter scenario when you've been gassed.

Just because "Every Marine/Soldier is a rifleman" doesn't mean they're combat arms who's sole job is to be effective at killing people.

Once again, I'm not saying that CCW is wrong or anything, what I am saying is react as the situation dictates, and in this situation unless you were 100% sure of your ability to provide effective fire, you would be better off not shooting.
The marine corps is 215,000 last I knew. That's active duty and reserves. How many people have been released into civvie life who is a formerarine? Alot. Every one of em who is combat MOS has seen live fire.
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