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Old 07-23-2008, 01:57 AM   #11
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+1 - The problem seems to be that every police dept. in the country is in a race to get the latest and greatest technology available - the old excuse about being outgunned by the bad guy is getting old. We have no crime rate here - just drunks and minor traffic issues. Some of the crap they have rivals the Spec Ops and Delta force equipment. Whatever happened to the "beat cop" who used his leg muscles and his customer relations skills to earn the respect of the citizens in his jurisdiction? My town is exactly 1 square mile. Every three years the police use the local paper to prep everyone to the fact that they need a new cruiser and taxes will be going up. At one point we had 12 cops. 6 full time, 6 part time FOR ONE SQUARE MILE!!! I have vehicles that are 15-20 years old and I drive on average 250 miles a week - how the hell do you wear out a "cruiser" patrolling 1 square mile - and they have three cars - one brand new Dodge Magnum, I guess they do not want to be outdone by any other small town police dept..add to that the small town "Walking Tall" / Barney Fife mentality and if it wasn't so expensive it would be laughable!

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Old 07-23-2008, 05:18 AM   #12
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Well guys for one thing this isn't a small town and even if it does have a small population say in just the thousands it is smack dab in St. Louis County which is nothing more than a series of cities , villages , townships etc .

The unit responding for SWAT duties is almost always ST. Louis County themselves or they at the very least augment all the small departments with their personnel and toys .

Toys that include their own helicopter , complete Bomb squad "Including robots" etc. etc . , I know for fact from seeing them deployed over the years they also have the bulletproof shields .

So to answer your question Texanbybirth I would have deployed one of my little robots long before spending the entire day standing around in sweltering heat without a single contact or even sight or sound of life in the building myself . Or maybe they could try something simple like looking in the windows or seeing if the door is unlocked and go in without kicking it down behind their protective shields . They did have a small army on site .

After all if this individual was indeed a danger to the public wouldn't you agree that establishing the fact that he is even in the building kind of an important task ?

Fact is all they did was Assume her story was correct , do we spend millions of dollars on training and equipment for these guys to stand around and assume or are they suppose to be trained to verify and assess a threat ?

What if a real threat began somewhere else many miles away ? St. Louis County is a huge area "500+ square miles" and they would be seriously delayed in responding to another situation a delay that could cost the lives of the tax payers they are suppose to be protecting .

And chorst294 were you people recognizing Civil rights when you Murdered Randy Weavers wife while she was unarmed and holding her infant child ?

How about when you fired 60+ shots at an unarmed man in NY city and murdered him ?

When you broke into private homes and stole private property in the aftermath of Katrina ?

Locally cops made unwarranted home searches and arrests of people on trumped up drug charges and confiscated cars and money some of which is now missing which has lead to State agencies coming in and taking over and firing an entire police force , law suits are flying everywhere over this one .

As far as the traffic incident the guy was leaning against a patrol car being searched with a cop on either side of him Plus the cop searching him plus two more standing by his Empty car behind them , the cars were all in the right lane and I was passing in the left with windows down doing maybe 5 mph so it really doesn't matter why they pulled him over he was surrounded and being cooperative as I could hear them speaking .

Do you think arriving officers who could see all of this really needed to draw guns and start waving them around ? This all happened at a 4 way signaled intersection with a business on all 4 corners including a gas station they were directly in front of and a firehouse across the street with hundreds of cars on the road leaving a public fireworks display .

Say what you want , but cops are more interested in looking like some kind of bad ass every chance they get rather than simply doing their jobs especialy when they get the chance to run around in their SWAT gear .

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Old 07-23-2008, 01:59 PM   #13
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JD, you left out the other side of the coin: You can't have teams like these and expect to remain a free country. Long term, these are the guys that become JBTs.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the USA is fast becoming a police state

It is my strongly held belief that law enforcement should not be a career objective. I never knew a cop (and I have known quite a few) that was in the business for more than 10 years that wasn't warped by it.
You know, that's a great thought on the surface, but if you examine it for a minute you will see that exactly what you are talking about is why that probably is not going to happen in your, or my, lifetime.

The mere fact that these guys make a living doing this is one of the key things that should factored in when you want to start throwing around terms "police state" and what's going to happen when.

Cops don't work 24-7. You saw numerous cases during the infamous Katrina, that everyone wants to point too for the bad that was done, where cops were more worried about their own homes and their own families than standing fast to a line in the sand that they didn't agree with. Call it what it was, they put themselves, and their own family / property / safety above the social directive from up on high. Abandoning your post, cowardice, selfishness, whatever - they didn't follow the orders that were given that they didn't agree with.

Do you honestly think the majority of the guys in blue are going to go to work from 12 to 10, rape and pillage the community they work out of, punch out, go home and be subjected to the same kind of "police state" you are describing? Seriously? If so, well, I guess you have a bit more cynical view than I do and there is no point in discussing this further because we will have no recourse other than to agree to disagree.

ASIDE from that whole part of the discussion, do any of you, ANY ONE have any idea how many shooters there out there in the country? I am not talking stats about how many handguns have been purchased in the last 25 years. I am not talking about the house with 2.5 kids that has a shiny Walther in the nightstand. I am talking about the guys that hunt ( birds, groundhogs, deer, elk, Sasquatch ) along with the guys who competition shoot ( pistol, rifle, benchrest, across the course, 3-gun ), along with the guys who just get together with friends and go to the range once a week and blow through 200 or 300 rounds?

We aren't talking small numbers, and we sure aren't talking a slim percentage of the population. Take a little poll around your place of employment, or your favorite coffee shop or anywhere you socialize and it will surprise you.

I have a slanted view, because my cubicle at work is filled with SHOT show freebies and everyone knows I work in a gun shop also - but the number of people with gun questions, or stories, or just want to talk guns truly surprises me. We are talking people you wouldn't have any idea they are into competition shooting on weekends, or going out for a long weekend of groundhog slaying. These are people that truly enjoy doing these activities, and I live in the Blue half of the state. It's not like I work in a small, mostly farming community here. We have businesses that deliver groceries to your house and will walk your dog FOR you!

Hell, most of the people on this forum board are shooters, of one caliber or another, and most of them have weaponry at their house as good as your average police force ( outside a truly automatic M4 ). Some of the guys on this board are better equipped than a SWAT team by themselves.

Now, I have no desire to ever be shot at again in my life, but I ask you, would you rather be shot at by a scared cop with a Glock .40, or one of your fellow forumites with his Garand??

Do you honestly think that if society broke down the first place the cops are going to be looking to "suppress" is going to be the middle class neighborhoods with people who go to work, go to church and pay their taxes?

Everything needs checks and balances, but one of the nice things in this country is that the citizens can arm themselves accordingly, within the law, to be a necessary balance. Well, at least until November.

JD
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Old 07-23-2008, 02:25 PM   #14
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I saw an episode of one of those SWAT shows (believe it was Dallas SWAT, but I wouldn't swear to it). A woman called the cops saying that her neighbor was shooting at her house. The cops showed up along with the SWAT team and set up outside and began talking to the neighbor over a loudspeaker. After about 9 hours of not hearing anything they decided to use a ram on the front door and enter the house. Keep in mind that the front door is where the woman said he shot from.
I say that exact episode. I would have sent her a bill for all the officers and equipment for that 9 hours.

I think they are getting a little to much use now a days. SWAT going in for a simple pot bust ect..... I think the beat cops are getting a little soft in the long run.
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Old 07-23-2008, 02:41 PM   #15
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JD - I was beginning to get all teary-eyed and start waving my American flag, but your last paragraph negated everything that came before it...this coming election is going to be a honest-to-god reality check for many people who assume "it can't happen here". If Obama gets elected, it will start a progression of events in this country that only the most stout Socia-list can appreciate and understand. The "silent majority" in this country has been very lucky to date. That is going to change. The tenacity of the left is unchallenged and poised for victory. That spells defeat for every centrist and moderate in the country, and there will be no return to sanity and morality once the progression has advanced to that point. Don't be lulled into thinking that the "police state" won't become a reality - remember, the ability of a person to support his family and himself will trump any pie-in-the-sky perception of "moral" or "civil " responsibility. A poll was conducted several years ago whereby the respondants were run-of-the-mill beat cops. The question, to paraphrase, was "would you side with the citizenry or the government in a situation of societal collapse?" The results of the poll indicated a split down the middle, with the majority of "beat cops" acknowledging, or at least stating to the interviewer, that they would side with the citizenry. But half of the respondants felt an unwavering duty to obey orders, and we all know that LE brass (chiefs of police) are anti-gun, jackbooted thugs. This poll was conducted almost a decade ago, the results of such a poll today would probably be much different, and I fear NOT in favor of the citizenry. Obama has voted outright for total bans on handguns, ammunition, semi-auto rifles, and the right of a person to defend himself with a gun. These are facts, and can be verified by looking at this months issue of the American Rifleman. While many here feel that McCain is the same, the facts quite clearly indicate that he is the polar opposite of Obama on gun control. You see how the Supreme Court ruled in favor of granting terrorists habeas corpus rights under our Constitution - and how we narrowly defeated the anti-gun sentiments of the Liberal Supreme Court Majority (only because Kennedy voted his conscience and NOT with his sentiments). If this country takes even one small baby step to the left, we can kiss whatever freedoms we have left today goodbye. The LE hierarchy has always aligned itself with the left - do you not think they will take their marching orders from the left and impose and enforce all the invasive and intrusive laws that will become reality under a Liberal, UN supportive government? When I received my CCW permit many years ago, the Licensing Officer (Sherrif's Dept) said to me:

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"You realize that this does NOT give you the right to shoot someone that breaks into your house at night? I can do that, but I would have a lot of paperwork to fill-out in the morning"
That speaks volumes of the attitude of many in the LE field. They feel that they posess rights and privileges that we common "civilians" do not and should not have. As long as they are empowered with the right to carry and use a gun, nothing and nobody else matters or will stand in their way, because they have the "rule of law" behind them and on their side. I think very few in LE would be willing to sacrifice their "power" mentality and pension benfits to take a moral stand.
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:21 PM   #16
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RL - I am not sure if you meant that first statement as a slam or not, so I am going to assume not and continue, because I haven't known you to regard me in that way previous.

I know that you have strong opinions on this issue of the coming vote, and I am not going to try to disuade them, nor am I going to agree with them outright.

I respect what you are saying - and I understand where you are coming from, believe me I do. I intend on voting, and I intend on voting with firm beliefs. However, there is a HUMAN factor that isn't being weighed in hypotheticals here, on a lone internet forum.

You can not ask a group of employees, of any corporation or entity, even in a "hush-hush, no one is going to know" poll about what they would do "IF" such and such occured, in a vacuum. That is what they polls you are talking about have attempted to do.

Questionaire: Mr. Uniformed Trooper / Cop / Nut and Bolt guy for Boeing / Ice Cream maker, Do you feel that the company/entity that is paying your salary should be allowed to perform "X", which would normally be in violation of "law, code of conduct, moral belief, reasonable thought process" ??

"Employee": *wheels spinning - thinking to one's self, what is the right answer and what is the "right" answer*

You don't know. They don't know. I don't know. No one knows for certain what anyone else is going to do, until they up and do it. I guarantee you, if you polled 100% of the cops from New Orleans prior to Katrina and asked if they thought they personally, or their fellow cops, would abandon their post, you would have received a much higher percentage of "No. No "F"ing way" than you got from the real result.

Nobody knows what a cop that has three kids, a nice house, a boat that he fishes off of on a lake with other "civilians" is going to do when "ordered" to accoust the very people he solicializes with. Maybe he protects his job, maybe he doesn't.

You don't know! Nobody on this forum knows, so any speculation about what the jack booted thug gun grabbers are going to be able to pull off, and what they won't is complete fiction until such time that the orders come down and the chips fall where they may.

Now, I work on a lot of cop guns. I do trigger jobs, I do glass bedding on sniper rifles, I do scope mounts, I do muzzle breaks, I do a full maintenence on their tactical AR's - and these guys are in the shop ALL THE TIME. It's not four guys out of 500, it's more like 200 out of 300 that are in the shop, filing in and out with info requests, some of them actually hunt on their own time, picking up and dropping off. They talk about all sorts of stuff, but mostly they talk about the job, and how much they hate the politics and what's BS and what isn't. Sometimes we get the funny story, or the exciting story about the big drug bust, but mostly, they talk about what is working and what isn't.

They aren't a bunch of stand off droids, waiting for their next command, that can't wait to draw down on me and impose their will. They are normal guys, with families and fears and hopes and wants and needs, just like you and me. To be honest, half of them can't maintain their weapons, and judging by their targets, they don't shoot that well in the first place...

I understand being ever vigiliant, and I understand fearing what powers could be invoked should A+B=C; but don't negate the human factor in that equation. There is no 100% truly predictable human behavior.

You probably didn't know what the Marine next to you was going to do the first time a round whipped by your melon. I bet you knew what you THOUGHT he was going to do, and I bet you were hoping like hell he would do it and not surprise you, but you didn't KNOW, FOR SURE, what was going to happen with him until that time came and it actually played out.

Don't sell the boys in blue short just because you assume they agree with a higher command - a lot of them are just like you and me. They work somewhere, or did work somewhere, that they could make a good living, but didn't necessarily agree with all the decisions and politics that went along with it.

JD

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Old 07-23-2008, 11:33 PM   #17
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JD - My apologies if you took what I wrote as a slam. I wouldn't do that to you, for future referrence. You are one of the few out here that conducts himself as a gentleman and I truly respect that and will always treat you as such. What I meant was that up until your last paragraph I agreed totally with what you were trying to convey. Unfortunately when you said :

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Everything needs checks and balances, but one of the nice things in this country is that the citizens can arm themselves accordingly, within the law, to be a necessary balance. Well, at least until November.
This is where it gets dicey. To begin with, you are right in that we can arm ourselves "accordingly, within the law". Those options that fall "within the law" are getting narrower and narrower. And after November, if Obama wins, they will get narrower still. How is the citizenry of this country able to exercise the 2nd Amendment in the way in which it was intended when first written into the Constitution? Do you believe that it is possible for the citizens of this country to prevent a repressive government from seizing complete control? Regardless of how many hunting rifles and pistols are available to, or floating around in the hands of citizens, it is a fairytale on par with the movie "Red Dawn" to think that the citizenry can successfully "put down" a government-sponsored military/LE coup. And I doubt it would get the chance, because total control is being ceded in small pieces every day, all over this country from the local level to the state level, to the federal level. The common denominator at all levels is LE. They exist at every level to enforce the demands of the eliteist hierarchy at each level. Do you remember all of the Clinton "photo ops" with LE officials during the days leading up to the '94 gun ban and Brady Bill passage? I do. That's when I joined LEAA (Law Enforcement Alliance of America) and got a real education as far as where LE higher-ups stand on the gun confiscation scheme in this country. LEAA is basically a good organisation comprised of current and retired LE from all over the country, as well as civilian pro-gun activists. They themselves chastise the LE Brass for being discriminatory against civilian carry. But when they were pushing for passage of HR239(? I forget the bill #) which was to grant ex-LE the right to carry concealed across state lines, they sold it as a very important piece of legislation that would grow to include the civilian population. It's been almost 8 years since that bill became law and no new legislation has been introduced, and LEAA is suspiciously silent on this fact. All I'm saying is that to trust that LE will side with the general population in a SHTF scenario is like the old bumper sticker that shows several jack-booted-thugs in SWAT attire, and the caption reads "We're From the Government, and We're Here To Help You"... just take a look at what LE did to Randy Weaver...he was no saint, like the Branch Davidians, but nobody deserves to be entrapped.
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:04 AM   #18
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RL - I am not sure if you meant that first statement as a slam or not, so I am going to assume not and continue, because I haven't known you to regard me in that way previous.

I know that you have strong opinions on this issue of the coming vote, and I am not going to try to disuade them, nor am I going to agree with them outright.

I respect what you are saying - and I understand where you are coming from, believe me I do. I intend on voting, and I intend on voting with firm beliefs. However, there is a HUMAN factor that isn't being weighed in hypotheticals here, on a lone internet forum.

You can not ask a group of employees, of any corporation or entity, even in a "hush-hush, no one is going to know" poll about what they would do "IF" such and such occured, in a vacuum. That is what they polls you are talking about have attempted to do.

Questionaire: Mr. Uniformed Trooper / Cop / Nut and Bolt guy for Boeing / Ice Cream maker, Do you feel that the company/entity that is paying your salary should be allowed to perform "X", which would normally be in violation of "law, code of conduct, moral belief, reasonable thought process" ??

"Employee": *wheels spinning - thinking to one's self, what is the right answer and what is the "right" answer*

You don't know. They don't know. I don't know. No one knows for certain what anyone else is going to do, until they up and do it. I guarantee you, if you polled 100% of the cops from New Orleans prior to Katrina and asked if they thought they personally, or their fellow cops, would abandon their post, you would have received a much higher percentage of "No. No "F"ing way" than you got from the real result.

Nobody knows what a cop that has three kids, a nice house, a boat that he fishes off of on a lake with other "civilians" is going to do when "ordered" to accoust the very people he solicializes with. Maybe he protects his job, maybe he doesn't.

You don't know! Nobody on this forum knows, so any speculation about what the jack booted thug gun grabbers are going to be able to pull off, and what they won't is complete fiction until such time that the orders come down and the chips fall where they may.

Now, I work on a lot of cop guns. I do trigger jobs, I do glass bedding on sniper rifles, I do scope mounts, I do muzzle breaks, I do a full maintenence on their tactical AR's - and these guys are in the shop ALL THE TIME. It's not four guys out of 500, it's more like 200 out of 300 that are in the shop, filing in and out with info requests, some of them actually hunt on their own time, picking up and dropping off. They talk about all sorts of stuff, but mostly they talk about the job, and how much they hate the politics and what's BS and what isn't. Sometimes we get the funny story, or the exciting story about the big drug bust, but mostly, they talk about what is working and what isn't.

They aren't a bunch of stand off droids, waiting for their next command, that can't wait to draw down on me and impose their will. They are normal guys, with families and fears and hopes and wants and needs, just like you and me. To be honest, half of them can't maintain their weapons, and judging by their targets, they don't shoot that well in the first place...

I understand being ever vigiliant, and I understand fearing what powers could be invoked should A+B=C; but don't negate the human factor in that equation. There is no 100% truly predictable human behavior.

You probably didn't know what the Marine next to you was going to do the first time a round whipped by your melon. I bet you knew what you THOUGHT he was going to do, and I bet you were hoping like hell he would do it and not surprise you, but you didn't KNOW, FOR SURE, what was going to happen with him until that time came and it actually played out.

Don't sell the boys in blue short just because you assume they agree with a higher command - a lot of them are just like you and me. They work somewhere, or did work somewhere, that they could make a good living, but didn't necessarily agree with all the decisions and politics that went along with it.

JD

I have to agree with this, we're not droids, we're people like everyone else. We have our own personal beliefs that sometimes differ with the dept's. Look folks, I take my job seriously, but it is only that, "A JOB". I don't know about other states, but in FL, our police aren't spending their days thinking of better ways to screw the general public. Most of the police politics I've seen in the central FL area have absolutely nothing to do with guns or violating anyones rights. That's why we have so many lawyers, to keep that from happening. Speaking of lawyers, maybe we should turn our attention to the money grubbing lawyers for deteriorating this country, instead of the police. I do understand that LEO's aren't perfect and have been known to make mistakes, but who hasn't. The only difference is when you make a mistake, you don't have the media there to sensationalize it.
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:30 AM   #19
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I have to agree with this, we're not droids, we're people like everyone else. We have our own personal beliefs that sometimes differ with the dept's. Look folks, I take my job seriously, but it is only that, "A JOB". I don't know about other states, but in FL, our police aren't spending their days thinking of better ways to screw the general public. Most of the police politics I've seen in the central FL area have absolutely nothing to do with guns or violating anyones rights. That's why we have so many lawyers, to keep that from happening. Speaking of lawyers, maybe we should turn our attention to the money grubbing lawyers for deteriorating this country, instead of the police. I do understand that LEO's aren't perfect and have been known to make mistakes, but who hasn't. The only difference is when you make a mistake, you don't have the media there to sensationalize it.
+10 on the lawyers! The only difference between a dead snake in the road and a dead lawyer is that there are skid marks in front of the snake! I don't mean to offend you Chorst or any of the other cops on this forum. I respect what you do and can sympathize with the risks inherent in your job. Additionally, being in Florida, a relatively conservative state, your situation and the attitudes of your Dept. Chiefs are a bit more civil minded than in States like NY, NJ, and Mass., where the overwhelming "politically left" and "politically correct" bent dictates the demeanor and agenda of the police.
In years past in NY, I always had deep respect for the NYSP - they were always professional and courteous. That has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Now I would rather deal with a Sheriff than a State Trooper. The trend seems to be from a credo of "to protect and serve" to "intimidate and harrass". When Hillary Clintoris was elected things changed a lot. She gave all LE and State employee's massive salary increases. I wanted to apply to the NYSP Academy but I'm too old - they get over $50,000/yr salary while in the academy - salary increases to almost $62,000 in their first year after graduation! I guess they now feel they have to show gratitude by increasing revenue.
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Old 07-24-2008, 05:28 AM   #20
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+10 on the lawyers! The only difference between a dead snake in the road and a dead lawyer is that there are skid marks in front of the snake! I don't mean to offend you Chorst or any of the other cops on this forum. I respect what you do and can sympathize with the risks inherent in your job. Additionally, being in Florida, a relatively conservative state, your situation and the attitudes of your Dept. Chiefs are a bit more civil minded than in States like NY, NJ, and Mass., where the overwhelming "politically left" and "politically correct" bent dictates the demeanor and agenda of the police.
In years past in NY, I always had deep respect for the NYSP - they were always professional and courteous. That has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Now I would rather deal with a Sheriff than a State Trooper. The trend seems to be from a credo of "to protect and serve" to "intimidate and harrass". When Hillary Clintoris was elected things changed a lot. She gave all LE and State employee's massive salary increases. I wanted to apply to the NYSP Academy but I'm too old - they get over $50,000/yr salary while in the academy - salary increases to almost $62,000 in their first year after graduation! I guess they now feel they have to show gratitude by increasing revenue.
I see your point. I'm not a fan of Hillary either, thank god she's not in FL. I can only speak for police in FL, things might be different in other states. My dept. wants us to keep busy, but never, ever requires us to write X amount of tickets. In FL, you'd be surprised at how little of a citation actually makes it back to the dept. that issued it. Most of the revenue goes to the Court system, or at least that's how I understand it. We've been told to write more warnings in recent times due to the economy.

We have a SWAT team that gets a lot of it's funding through federal grants. We convert old equipment to meet our needs. We only carry our standard issue Glock 22 and a Bushmaster semi-auto AR15. We have a 40mm grenade launcher which was recently used to flush out a drug dealer from a house when he refused to exit. He had several warrants with a total of $150,000 bond and he has a criminal history longer than I am tall. Between the gas grenades and a Tazer, the situation ended peacefully with nobody getting hurt. I responded to the original call which caused him to receive the warrants. He stuck an AK47 in somebodies face after they ratted him out for selling drugs. He made it clear he wasnt' afraid to shoot it out with the police, then fled the scene prior to our arrival. I believe SWAT teams are needed these days. Their size and firepower should be dictated by the anticipated danger of the area. I don't know of any full time SWAT teams in FL. MOst team members volunteer a lot of their own time and receive little, if any compensation from the dept.
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