Is SWAT a Joke ?
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Old 07-21-2008, 01:40 PM   #1
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Boy do we seem to be getting some great news stories about our local cops lately .

Last nights big story was about a SWAT Teams little 8+ hour adventure in 100+ degree heat .

Lady claims her boyfriend was threatening her with a shotgun and she managed to get out of the house and go to a neighbors home .

News story admits it wasn't clear if she called police at neighbors or her house but anyway , Police show up and talk to her at her neighbors and decide to call in a SWAT team to surround the home .

This apparently started fairly early in the day and the SWAT team spent the day with the home surrounded despite not talking to suspect or hearing any gunshots or seeing movement or anything from the home .

They finally decide to check the place out and find they perhaps have had an empty home surrounded the whole time !!!

Yep No boyfriend , no nothing , not a single person there .

So either he left before they showed up or he managed to get past an entire SWAT team unseen , either way it sure doesn't instill confidence in the SWAT teams ability to do their job now does it ?

O and this was in a normal subdivision not a wooded setting by any means so if he left with them there they must have been sleeping or something .

The T in SWAT is suppose to stand for tactics and it sounds like they're long overdue to change the ones they use .

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Old 07-21-2008, 02:40 PM   #2
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He probably ran when she went next door. We had a case north of here a few years ago. Man was hold up in his home out in the country. Police finally did something when they decided to move in and the house burned to the ground. Found out the man had an escaped through the basement. People wanted the police to pay for a new house? I don't think that ever happened. Anyway they finally found him at a camp site after a tip and he went down shooting.
A few weeks ago a local man went off the edge. Said he would shoot anybody that tried to stop him. The sheriff lined the street with shot guns in hand. A some what busy little in a tiny town highway. He finally came out and fired two shots into the air before they subdued him. He could have hit passing cars. He is charged with using a hand gun in a felony. I will be watching this one. In my state using a firearm in a felony is supposed to add on an automatic two years. At least in an armed robbery.
So did the swat team mess up? Probably they did just as they needed not knowing if the man was still inside or offed himself. The mind has ways of playing some nasty tricks.

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Old 07-21-2008, 04:30 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by BigO01 View Post
Boy do we seem to be getting some great news stories about our local cops lately .

Last nights big story was about a SWAT Teams little 8+ hour adventure in 100+ degree heat .

Lady claims her boyfriend was threatening her with a shotgun and she managed to get out of the house and go to a neighbors home .

News story admits it wasn't clear if she called police at neighbors or her house but anyway , Police show up and talk to her at her neighbors and decide to call in a SWAT team to surround the home .

This apparently started fairly early in the day and the SWAT team spent the day with the home surrounded despite not talking to suspect or hearing any gunshots or seeing movement or anything from the home .

They finally decide to check the place out and find they perhaps have had an empty home surrounded the whole time !!!

Yep No boyfriend , no nothing , not a single person there .

So either he left before they showed up or he managed to get past an entire SWAT team unseen , either way it sure doesn't instill confidence in the SWAT teams ability to do their job now does it ?

O and this was in a normal subdivision not a wooded setting by any means so if he left with them there they must have been sleeping or something .

The T in SWAT is suppose to stand for tactics and it sounds like they're long overdue to change the ones they use .

First off, S.W.A.T. stands for Specail Weapons and Tactics. I spent time on my dept's SWAT team and can tell you we aren't a bunch of Rambo's looking to run through the front door and kill everyone. Diplomacy is what's expected of us first. Trying to come to a peaceful resolution first without any violence. As much as I love breaching the front door of a home, I really don't want to put myself at uneccessary risk. Every situation's different and we don't know what kind of info they had at the time. We should never judge people when our only source of info is the local news. Trust me, accuracy is not their main objective. Dynamic entries (forceful, high speed entries) put everyone involved at risk.
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Old 07-21-2008, 10:38 PM   #4
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I saw an episode of one of those SWAT shows (believe it was Dallas SWAT, but I wouldn't swear to it). A woman called the cops saying that her neighbor was shooting at her house. The cops showed up along with the SWAT team and set up outside and began talking to the neighbor over a loudspeaker. After about 9 hours of not hearing anything they decided to use a ram on the front door and enter the house. Keep in mind that the front door is where the woman said he shot from.

Several SWAT officers ran up to the door and attempted to enter. They hit it several times with the ram and nothing happened, simultaneously the commanding officer of the team asked the woman if she was sure that this was the correct door. She replied, "Now I'm not so sure that anyone was there!" Basically some kids were setting off fireworks and she freaked out and dreamed up the whole thing. I don't know if they charged her with anything but I think they should have.

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Old 07-21-2008, 10:50 PM   #5
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Well chorts it's a fact cops sure love to kick down doors and hell even shoot and kill little old lady's who Think their defending themselves from criminals coming in their homes .

Not to mention scaring the hell out of families shoving machine guns in their faces and throwing them to the floor when they can't even go to the correct address for their little "No Knock" party's .

Funny when the bullets are flying and people dying they can't seem to find the balls to go and do something Like in the Columbine shooting where they stood outside while people were being executed .

Personally I don't care if you call them SWAT or TAC units or whatever I think they're a plain joke .

Why spend all the money giving them state of the art weaponry when they won't actually use them to save a life once in awhile ? They might as well just be models for gun companies to sell guns standing around looking real cool with their AR's while people get killed .

Cops might as well have standing orders with the local pizza place when there is a hostage situation , even if hostages are being executed all they do is stand around playing with themselves .

Cops are such chickens they gotta have 20+ buddies show up at every situation even a stinking traffic stop !

This past 4th of July they had traffic snarled with cops flying up jumping out of their cars drawing their guns acting all bad waving them around , yet when we got up to the situation they had one car with one guy pulled over and he was being completely cooperative and even answering questions for them while being searched yet more cars are still flying up in my rear view mirror with fools jumping out drawing guns .

You guys should all go to Hollywood cause you sure put the "Keystone" cops to shame with your comedy skits or would if we took the loaded guns away from you so you can't shoot yourselves and little old ladies .

Between cops shooting themselves , killing unarmed people and standing around doing nothing we could eliminate thousands of stats that the Antigunners come up with every year of gun misuse if they just went back to hiring real men to do the job .

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Old 07-21-2008, 11:12 PM   #6
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Well chorts it's a fact cops sure love to kick down doors and hell even shoot and kill little old lady's who Think their defending themselves from criminals coming in their homes .

Not to mention scaring the hell out of families shoving machine guns in their faces and throwing them to the floor when they can't even go to the correct address for their little "No Knock" party's .

Funny when the bullets are flying and people dying they can't seem to find the balls to go and do something Like in the Columbine shooting where they stood outside while people were being executed .

Personally I don't care if you call them SWAT or TAC units or whatever I think they're a plain joke .

Why spend all the money giving them state of the art weaponry when they won't actually use them to save a life once in awhile ? They might as well just be models for gun companies to sell guns standing around looking real cool with their AR's while people get killed .

Cops might as well have standing orders with the local pizza place when there is a hostage situation , even if hostages are being executed all they do is stand around playing with themselves .

Cops are such chickens they gotta have 20+ buddies show up at every situation even a stinking traffic stop !

This past 4th of July they had traffic snarled with cops flying up jumping out of their cars drawing their guns acting all bad waving them around , yet when we got up to the situation they had one car with one guy pulled over and he was being completely cooperative and even answering questions for them while being searched yet more cars are still flying up in my rear view mirror with fools jumping out drawing guns .

You guys should all go to Hollywood cause you sure put the "Keystone" cops to shame with your comedy skits or would if we took the loaded guns away from you so you can't shoot yourselves and little old ladies .

Between cops shooting themselves , killing unarmed people and standing around doing nothing we could eliminate thousands of stats that the Antigunners come up with every year of gun misuse if they just went back to hiring real men to do the job .
By real men, I take it you mean how police acted long ago? Well, we've actaully started recognizing peoples civil rights for the past quarter century. True, it can make it very difficult for us to do our job, but these rights were intended to protect us. It seems as though you don't have too much respect for or faith in Law Enforcement. In that case, why not join the police academy yourself and learn first hand how those situations which look rediculous to most are actually common sense reactions to those who know what's going on. Please save your judgement for when you have all the facts. You have no idea why the police had that guy pulled over, he could have had a body in the trunk and just robbed a bank for all you know. And finally, I just have to know, do you have any military or law enforcement experience to back up your highly opinionated statements? I hear these kinds of opinions all the time from people on the streets (usually high drug areas) and it's funny how we're the first people they call when they're getting their butts kicked or shot at!
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Old 07-21-2008, 11:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigO01 View Post
Boy do we seem to be getting some great news stories about our local cops lately .

Last nights big story was about a SWAT Teams little 8+ hour adventure in 100+ degree heat .

Lady claims her boyfriend was threatening her with a shotgun and she managed to get out of the house and go to a neighbors home .

News story admits it wasn't clear if she called police at neighbors or her house but anyway , Police show up and talk to her at her neighbors and decide to call in a SWAT team to surround the home .

This apparently started fairly early in the day and the SWAT team spent the day with the home surrounded despite not talking to suspect or hearing any gunshots or seeing movement or anything from the home .

They finally decide to check the place out and find they perhaps have had an empty home surrounded the whole time !!!

Yep No boyfriend , no nothing , not a single person there .

So either he left before they showed up or he managed to get past an entire SWAT team unseen , either way it sure doesn't instill confidence in the SWAT teams ability to do their job now does it ?

O and this was in a normal subdivision not a wooded setting by any means so if he left with them there they must have been sleeping or something .

The T in SWAT is suppose to stand for tactics and it sounds like they're long overdue to change the ones they use .

Since they are so dumb and you are so smart, what should they have done? Stayed at the station and polished their rifles? Burned the house down? Assume she was lying?
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Old 07-22-2008, 05:50 PM   #8
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It's sooooo easy to Monday-morning-quarterback when you wern't there and don't know what happened.

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Old 07-22-2008, 06:22 PM   #9
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SWAT and Tac units aren't a joke, they are a much needed resource, but they have to be fielded correctly. Just like snipers in Vietnam, everyone looks back now and thinks, "why did it take so long to get them on board"; no one knew how to employ them.

Hell, the great General Norman Schwartkopf was guilty of not having a single assignment in mind for the SAS during Desert Shield. He was of the "clank-clank - I'm a tank" mentality to warfare and even though the SAS already had units on the ground and behind enemy lines, the good General at first refused to empower them on our behalf.

You could have the best, most highly trained, kick ass, take no prisioners unit on the planet, but if the people in charge do not know how to properly field them, or won't let them be fielded properly because of fear of lawsuits or public image, they become incapable of doing their jobs properly.

Example? Chief Darrel F. Gates, regardless of what you think of him, fielded possibly the first "SWAT" teams in Los Angeles. They were kicking in doors, doing raids, busting heads and putting bad guys in jail by record numbers. They also were accused of deadly force, corruption and incompetence by the black community that grew into a ground swell of public emotion. Even though this team had not lost any court cases, or challenges, prior to the events that unfolded, and even though this same team had given several communities back their streets, the powers at be above Gates recommended that he put the muzzle back on and put the leash back on his boys because of public opinion. Instead he made the choice to dismantle the team, re-allocate the officers into other positions, than allow the team to be fielded incorrectly.

Later on, operations like C.R.A.S.H. & Operation Hammer were successful, but also were met with groundswell against the tactics used.

Society, apparently, would like to have it both ways and utilize the outdated "ToolShed" brief. That term was actually coined in the 60's, but was given credit in a straight to video movie with Lawrence Fishburn called Bad Company.

In the initial brief, it was hypothesized that the general public would not stomach highly trained, Uber troops unless there was a war effort to fight. As such, the best way for the military, at the time, and Government Agencies, was to take these super soldiers and put them in a "Toolshed" until such time that they would be needed. It's a fantastic principle, if you never step foot in the real world. There is a great story on it from the annuals of the CIA called "Dark Passages" or "Dark Orders" something like that. I found it after doing some research on the term.

My point is this - You can't have teams like these and not expect them to stumble, especially if you don't dedicate full resources to constant training, you don't send them to the field trials, you don't give them one job to do and that is SWAT. If it's a patrolman, who is also your lead door kicker, because he happens to weigh 250 & bench 450 well, that's great. But put him up against a guy who is 180 pounds that does the job day in and day out and it's going to be a night and day comparison.

These small town units, even ones that handle call outs for multiple towns, aren't ONLY SWAT GUYS - they also have other job duties, and those job duties take away from their training, take away from their cohesiveness and take away from their operational ability.

That - and you have to have someone behind the scenes with the sand to say "Green Light" and be willing to stand behind that choice, despite the fact that their career could be OVER in a blink of an eye if they are wrong...

JD

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Old 07-22-2008, 11:43 PM   #10
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My point is this - You can't have teams like these and not expect them to stumble, especially if you don't dedicate full resources to constant training, you don't send them to the field trials, you don't give them one job to do and that is SWAT.
JD, you left out the other side of the coin: You can't have teams like these and expect to remain a free country. Long term, these are the guys that become JBTs.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the USA is fast becoming a police state. We keep putting more and more officers on the street, even though violent crime is falling. BigO01 is right in one respect. Police have an "us vs them" mentality and respond to everything with overwhelming force. When you combine that with all the surveillance that goes on everywhere you turn, public and private, and the callous disregard the feds have shown for privacy, and the desire for political liberals to control every facet of our lives, we will probably lose our liberty in our lifetimes. And I am not even going to touch how local governments use police activities as a revenue stream.

Never one to identify a problem without proposing a solution, my answer is to staff down police departments and rely on community reservists. It has and does work. Sophisticated police departments are a development of the latter part of the 20th century, an outgrowth of the "drug war", which no sane person will agree is winnable. For the first 180 years of this country's existence, most communities had a constable who drafted upstanding citizens in crisis situations. Example: the Texas Tower shooting in Austin - it was a civilian with a deer rifle that kept Charles Whitman pinned down so the cops could rush the tower. There was none of the "leave it to the professionals" crap.

It is my strongly held belief that law enforcement should not be a career objective. I never knew a cop (and I have known quite a few) that was in the business for more than 10 years that wasn't warped by it.
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