A question about viewpoints - Page 3
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Discussion Forums > The Club House > A question about viewpoints

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-05-2010, 02:44 PM   #21
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
SigGambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: West Bloomfield
Posts: 77
Default

For me it's because California gets more media than the other states plus having two very powerful extremely liberal members of the government that don't just have a say in what goes on in California but also in my state and to me that's why my eye is brought more to California and it is easier to make a blanket statement than it is to make a refined criticism. I try not to do things like that but I will admit to being a basher of California in blanket statements.

I was offered a job a few years ago in Chicago that would have more than doubled my salary and I refused it because of how Chicago and Illinois are when it comes to the freedoms I hold sacred.

__________________
Rebellion dogs my every step!
SigGambler is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 02:53 PM   #22
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: everywhere
Posts: 9,639
Liked 9 Times on 9 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SigGambler View Post
For me it's because California gets more media than the other states plus having two very powerful extremely liberal members of the government that don't just have a say in what goes on in California but also in my state and to me that's why my eye is brought more to California and it is easier to make a blanket statement than it is to make a refined criticism. I try not to do things like that but I will admit to being a basher of California in blanket statements.

I was offered a job a few years ago in Chicago that would have more than doubled my salary and I refused it because of how Chicago and Illinois are when it comes to the freedoms I hold sacred.
I like sticking to convictions. Well done, new guy.
__________________
Benning Boy is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2010, 04:05 AM   #23
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
M14sRock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,539
Liked 32 Times on 23 Posts
Likes Given: 45

Default

Just a "brief" clarification.

Full capacity mags are NOT illegal in CA. However, it IS illegal to "import, assemble/manufacture, transfer, etc" those mags. If you have owned them since before the ban they are fine to use. Exceptions are in the CA legal "Off List Lower" AR's and other neutered semi autos that are limited to 10rd mags. I have several hundred "full capacity" magazines and use them wherever and whenever I want to.

It is even legal to "repair" damaged mags with new parts. So "rebuild" kits are sold just about everywhere. "Rebuild kits" are just disassembled mags.

The law is so poorly written, and questionable in general, that it is not enforced. The state is generally afraid to prosecute someone for fear that it will end up in the whole law being thrown out in court. The few cases I'm aware of have ended up with the "offender" being given a court order to register the guns with DOJ (even though the amnesty has expired) and a small fine. Then they get their guns back and register them.

Chuck Michel, legal council for CRPA and law partner of Carmen Trutanich the City Attorney of Los Angeles, has spanked the CA DOJ and got the "OLL" guns approved. He has a series of lawsuits and challenges lined up (so I'm told), and they will continue to dismantle the unconstitutional gun laws we currently have.

Part of the issue is that LEO's in CA can buy whatever they want and nobody questions it. But there is no law that states that LEO's are exempt from state law. They are not allowed to speed, run red lights, beat their spouses, etc. but nobody questions their ability to buy "full cap" mags or "non-neutered" semi auto's.

Rant off.

__________________
M14sRock is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2010, 04:48 AM   #24
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
DarinCraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA
Posts: 1,170
Liked 23 Times on 11 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

M14 if you really believe that you can use hi cap mags in your rifle when ever you want, you really need to familiarize yourself with PC12276.1 before you find yourself in handcuffs when you go to the range.

Specifically, any semiautomatic rifle with a capacity of more than 10 rounds is considered an assault weapon regardless if it has the evil features or not. This means your M14 with a 20 round mag installed IS AN ASSAULT WEAPON AND A FELONY. Believe it or not ATF and DOJ frequent ranges and look at what people are shooting. I have seen them arrest people at ranges.

I know the code reads fixed mag with capacity more than 10 rounds but TRUST ME it applies to detachable mags as well. The section about hi cap mags, PC 12020 ties all of this together.

The only exception to this is if you declared the rifle an assault weapon in 96' and you have a hicap permit. I have numerous 30 mags for SHTF, but I would never seat one at a range. I've already been talked to by DOJ at a range and was almost in a lot of trouble until he saw I was LE.

__________________
Quote:
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."
Thomas Jefferson
From the great speaker...er uh Barak Obongo

"Liberals make great proctologists. They're the only ones who truly know what the inside of an anus looks like."~me

Last edited by DarinCraft; 02-10-2010 at 04:53 AM.
DarinCraft is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2010, 02:02 PM   #25
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
M14sRock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,539
Liked 32 Times on 23 Posts
Likes Given: 45

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarinCraft View Post
M14 if you really believe that you can use hi cap mags in your rifle when ever you want, you really need to familiarize yourself with PC12276.1 before you find yourself in handcuffs when you go to the range.

Specifically, any semiautomatic rifle with a capacity of more than 10 rounds is considered an assault weapon regardless if it has the evil features or not. This means your M14 with a 20 round mag installed IS AN ASSAULT WEAPON AND A FELONY. Believe it or not ATF and DOJ frequent ranges and look at what people are shooting. I have seen them arrest people at ranges.

I know the code reads fixed mag with capacity more than 10 rounds but TRUST ME it applies to detachable mags as well. The section about hi cap mags, PC 12020 ties all of this together.

The only exception to this is if you declared the rifle an assault weapon in 96' and you have a hicap permit. I have numerous 30 mags for SHTF, but I would never seat one at a range. I've already been talked to by DOJ at a range and was almost in a lot of trouble until he saw I was LE.
DC, with all due respect, I have read the law every which way possible and can not figure out the confusion.

The law clearly defines an "assault weapon" in 12276.1(a)(1) as, "A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine AND any one of the following"... Then it goes on to describe the "evil features" list.

We all see the guys with the OLL guns at the range using PMags (which could not have been in CA before the ban because they had not been developed yet), so I suppose they could be hassled. And anyone can be arrested for any reason at any time, but that does not mean they are actually prosecuted.

And as this is a California law, ATF has nothing to do with it. If ATF is involved there are bigger laws being dealt with.

Please read the law again and show me the part that supports your assertion.

Thanks.
__________________
M14sRock is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2010, 07:13 PM   #26
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
DarinCraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA
Posts: 1,170
Liked 23 Times on 11 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M14sRock View Post
DC, with all due respect, I have read the law every which way possible and can not figure out the confusion.

The law clearly defines an "assault weapon" in 12276.1(a)(1) as, "A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine AND any one of the following"... Then it goes on to describe the "evil features" list.

We all see the guys with the OLL guns at the range using PMags (which could not have been in CA before the ban because they had not been developed yet), so I suppose they could be hassled. And anyone can be arrested for any reason at any time, but that does not mean they are actually prosecuted.

And as this is a California law, ATF has nothing to do with it. If ATF is involved there are bigger laws being dealt with.

Please read the law again and show me the part that supports your assertion.

Thanks.
Well this goes to show a little clarification goes along way. I called DOJ, ATF (for their translation) and the DA. I am partially wrong.

1. A weapon that does not have the evil features, can be used with hi caps IF AND ONLY IF the were owned prior to the ban and the person can prove it. I asked how that can be proved because I seriously doubt someone will have a receipt prior to 2000 especially if when they purchased something there was no ban. He said if they owned the weapon the mags are for prior to the ban. It would be hard to believe someone owned the mags for a gun they didn't own yet.

2. A weapon that is a registered assault weapon can have hi caps.

3. A weapon that does not have evil features and is equipped with "post ban" hi cap mags will be charged with PC 12020 and 12276.1. This was what I was reciting from. I did not realize legal ownership of hi caps subjugated you from the hi cap usage section of 12020.

4. An OLL or any other configuration that makes a would be assault weapon legal in CA (i.e. bullet button, etc) CANNOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES CAN EVER USE A HIGH CAP MAG. When you use a bullet button or similar in an AR or an AK to make the weapon legal in CA, the magazine is now considered fixed. If you place a hi cap mag in one of these weapons you now have a hi capacity fixed magazine a violation of PC 12276.1(a)(2)-Assault weapon.

5. An OLL or any other of the type that does not have the evil features (i.e. Monster man grip) that can have a detachable magazine can use a hi cap mag if and only if the magazine was preban.

So I apologize about the misinformation about your circumstance, however the people you see at the range with PMAGs are in violation of no less than one section, unless the PMAGs are blocked at 10 rounds (coldwarshooters sells them) or they have a hicap permit AND their AR does not have a fixed mag device.

I just misunderstood, I thought along with a lot of people I worked with that even if you had hi caps prior to the ban you could not use them no matter what. Apparently you can if you have a detachable mag in a non evil featured weapon.

Sorry about that
Darin

EDIT: Ijust saw your statement about prosecution, trust me when it comes to guns...they want stats and will prosecute if they reasonably can.
__________________
Quote:
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."
Thomas Jefferson
From the great speaker...er uh Barak Obongo

"Liberals make great proctologists. They're the only ones who truly know what the inside of an anus looks like."~me

Last edited by DarinCraft; 02-10-2010 at 07:18 PM.
DarinCraft is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2010, 08:29 PM   #27
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
mrm14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Sacramento, California
Posts: 2,382
Liked 311 Times on 207 Posts
Likes Given: 27

Default

Yep, Ruger Mini 14's that usually didn't or dont have flash hiders from the factory and pre ban Springfield M1A's with California legal flash hider replacements dont fall under the description of assualt featured weapons in this state. Unfortunately AR/AK featured rifles do and must have 10 round button type or fixed magazines. All the over 10 round mags I may have for my M1A's and Ruger Mini 14 were bought before the high cap ban and would be "grandfathered in" according to the law as I understand it.

__________________
mrm14 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2010, 10:02 PM   #28
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
orangello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,170
Liked 5732 Times on 3358 Posts
Likes Given: 4877

Default

What is worrysome is that even an experienced law enforcement person, with the best intentions, can be confused by those laws (No offense DC). Under the wrong circumstances, that confusion might result in a temporary loss of custody of the firearm, i would think. That would suck.

That is a sure sign that the laws need to be rethought & at least simplified.

__________________

Dead Bears, the only good kind.

orangello is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2010, 10:09 PM   #29
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
DarinCraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA
Posts: 1,170
Liked 23 Times on 11 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

No offense taken at all. I know people make mistakes and I am the first to admit when I screw up. That is why I called so many people to clarify. In my defense, the only part I misunderstood, however was whether or not you can use a hi cap mag in a rifle even if the mag is preban. i

What is really sad is I called DOJ firearms and they had to call me back, because at first they said the same thing I did. But when I clarified, "No evil features and a preban mag" I was told, "Well let me look into that and call you back." They called back and said whoops we're wrong it's legal.

The ATF agent quickly stated it was illegal, but when I clarified again it was "In that case I think they're okay."

Hahaha....well at least after I called I knew I was not the only one screwed up. I do feel like an idiot though.

Yes you are right, even if LE books that FA into evidence and charges are later dropped. It can be a major pain to get your gun back. You know this is not at all helping my post...

__________________
Quote:
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."
Thomas Jefferson
From the great speaker...er uh Barak Obongo

"Liberals make great proctologists. They're the only ones who truly know what the inside of an anus looks like."~me

Last edited by DarinCraft; 02-10-2010 at 10:13 PM.
DarinCraft is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2010, 11:45 PM   #30
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
M14sRock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,539
Liked 32 Times on 23 Posts
Likes Given: 45

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarinCraft View Post
Well this goes to show a little clarification goes along way. I called DOJ, ATF (for their translation) and the DA. I am partially wrong.

1. A weapon that does not have the evil features, can be used with hi caps IF AND ONLY IF the were owned prior to the ban and the person can prove it. I asked how that can be proved because I seriously doubt someone will have a receipt prior to 2000 especially if when they purchased something there was no ban. He said if they owned the weapon the mags are for prior to the ban. It would be hard to believe someone owned the mags for a gun they didn't own yet.

2. A weapon that is a registered assault weapon can have hi caps.

3. A weapon that does not have evil features and is equipped with "post ban" hi cap mags will be charged with PC 12020 and 12276.1. This was what I was reciting from. I did not realize legal ownership of hi caps subjugated you from the hi cap usage section of 12020.

4. An OLL or any other configuration that makes a would be assault weapon legal in CA (i.e. bullet button, etc) CANNOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES CAN EVER USE A HIGH CAP MAG. When you use a bullet button or similar in an AR or an AK to make the weapon legal in CA, the magazine is now considered fixed. If you place a hi cap mag in one of these weapons you now have a hi capacity fixed magazine a violation of PC 12276.1(a)(2)-Assault weapon.

5. An OLL or any other of the type that does not have the evil features (i.e. Monster man grip) that can have a detachable magazine can use a hi cap mag if and only if the magazine was preban.

So I apologize about the misinformation about your circumstance, however the people you see at the range with PMAGs are in violation of no less than one section, unless the PMAGs are blocked at 10 rounds (coldwarshooters sells them) or they have a hicap permit AND their AR does not have a fixed mag device.

I just misunderstood, I thought along with a lot of people I worked with that even if you had hi caps prior to the ban you could not use them no matter what. Apparently you can if you have a detachable mag in a non evil featured weapon.

Sorry about that
Darin

EDIT: Ijust saw your statement about prosecution, trust me when it comes to guns...they want stats and will prosecute if they reasonably can.
Always good to measure twice and cut once. Thanks for checking.

Yes, the mags must have been owned and in possession prior to the ban. But if a mag is not manufacture date stamped there is no way for them to prove it is not preban. Innocent until proven guilty.

Good to know nothing has changed. Now, let's support Chuck Michel in getting the whole thing thrown out.

You rock.
__________________
M14sRock is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes