Question about media/gun physics
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:29 PM   #1
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Default Question about media/gun physics

I recently read a CNN story about a mass shooting. The statistic they gave for the number of shots fired seemed unrealistic but since I do not have a great knowledge I was not positive. The article I am referring to is the following:
NY gunman fired 98 shots in about a minute, police chief says - CNN.com
I am wondering if a 9mm pistol, non automatic, can fire 87 shots in about 1 min even if you reload it or it has a 50 round clip. I realize there is a great deal of variety but some general wisdom would help. The number just seems sketchy to me.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:39 PM   #2
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It sounds like a really high number, but it's completely possible. Glock 18s have a cyclic rate of about 1300 rds/minute. I'd bet it a little lower for the 17, but not by much. With Glocks 34 rd mags, it would be completely possible, even without the extra pistol.

This guy 'worked out' anyway. He had a lot of practice.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:53 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runewood View Post
I recently read a CNN story about a mass shooting. The statistic they gave for the number of shots fired seemed unrealistic but since I do not have a great knowledge I was not positive. The article I am referring to is the following:
NY gunman fired 98 shots in about a minute, police chief says - CNN.com
I am wondering if a 9mm pistol, non automatic, can fire 87 shots in about 1 min even if you reload it or it has a 50 round clip. I realize there is a great deal of variety but some general wisdom would help. The number just seems sketchy to me.
Welcome, by the way.

While the make of the guns is not listed as far as I could see, the number is not crazy.

There's a guy that works for S&W that can put 6 shots on a target in 'bout 1/2 a second with a revolver. Semis of many makes can cycle those rounds reported easily with practice...this guy was a regular at a range. There are mfr made and after market made high capacity mags on the market for many makes.

If some one had CC in the building, he should have never gotten that far.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:59 PM   #4
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Welcome to the Forum - Thanks for looking into the facts before jumping to conclusions and becoming an "expert" by way of the news...

To be fair, this is what the police chief said, and it was part speculation

Quote:
The police chief said that "it's not unreasonable to think" that Wong fired his 98 shots "in just over a minute" before he shot and killed himself in the classroom.
Is it possible? I personally don't believe so. 87 rounds from a high cap 9mm handgun, he would probably be shooting the gun dry and need to do a two handed reload, and still got off 11 rounds from a .45 ACP?

In what, 75 or 80 seconds?

Factor in acquiring targets, which if he fired over 10,000 rounds in his life he would have been purposely doing, and I don't see it.

Glock 18C wouldn't have been possible to own in NY, and last report was that the weapons were legal. 34 round mags would fit other Glock weapons, but even then, that's one full mag, then a reload, then another reload, and still getting off 11 shots with a .45

The .45 was probably a high cap mag with one in the chamber, though I have seen 11 shot 1911 mags, so that is possible. I am betting he shot that gun dry and it was his secondary weapon.

It's possible, but it's not HIGHLY probable...

Moving, checking out targets and assessing threats, moving from location to location, acquiring new targets to shoot at, making sure no one is shooting at you...... plus the dude was distraught and partially nuts, so he had to be savoring at least SOME of the work.

Spree killers kill for a reason and it isn't to prove how good they are with a pistol. They have rage and they have a desire to "get back" at the people they feel have wronged them....

I can't possibly see someone in that frame of mind, doing that much work, in that time frame.

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Old 04-09-2009, 12:43 AM   #5
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I believe I read the 9mm was a Breatta, It a lot of rounds but if he was poping rounds as fast as possible at anything that moves I expect it is possible. My guess is they made the shot count based on shell casings collected so the number is probaly correct.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
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I believe I read the 9mm was a Breatta, It a lot of rounds but if he was poping rounds as fast as possible at anything that moves I expect it is possible. My guess is they made the shot count based on shell casings collected so the number is probaly correct.
I am not disputing the shell casings or the rounds fired, I am disputing the minute, or so, it took to dump all those shells.

Beretta's came with 15 rounders, but I believe you could get 30 rounders after market. But even with three of those, he had to reload twice, plus he had another pistol that was a .45

Spree Killers don't just go in shooting and HOPE to hit something, they are there for a purpose, and that purpose to get revenge on those that they feel wronged them.

They aren't there to "Spray and Pray" - so I find it hard to believe he was just cranking off shots as fast as he could pull the trigger.... Perhaps when he had a target in sight, but then he would re-acquire a new target and that would take time....

I firmly dispute the "minute or so" theory of the Police Chief...

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Old 04-09-2009, 03:31 AM   #7
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WELCOME runewood, glad to have you here and glad you are asking questions!
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:23 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
I am not disputing the shell casings or the rounds fired, I am disputing the minute, or so, it took to dump all those shells.

Beretta's came with 15 rounders, but I believe you could get 30 rounders after market. But even with three of those, he had to reload twice, plus he had another pistol that was a .45

Spree Killers don't just go in shooting and HOPE to hit something, they are there for a purpose, and that purpose to get revenge on those that they feel wronged them.

They aren't there to "Spray and Pray" - so I find it hard to believe he was just cranking off shots as fast as he could pull the trigger.... Perhaps when he had a target in sight, but then he would re-acquire a new target and that would take time....

I firmly dispute the "minute or so" theory of the Police Chief...

JD
A "minute or so" is a tuly poor statement, there was no reasonable value to put a time line for the shots. All the same I expect the bullet count is correct and may have taken twice as long. Still I expect less than 25% of the rounds hit a person and believe he came in shooting at anything that moved, he was spraying but didn't need to pray as no one was shooting back.
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Old 04-09-2009, 01:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WDB View Post
A "minute or so" is a tuly poor statement, there was no reasonable value to put a time line for the shots. All the same I expect the bullet count is correct and may have taken twice as long. Still I expect less than 25% of the rounds hit a person and believe he came in shooting at anything that moved, he was spraying but didn't need to pray as no one was shooting back.
I think we are in agreement about the time versus the number of rounds. I would concur that probably 25% OR LESS of his rounds actually struck flesh.

I just can't see him going in there and opening up on office computers and glass partitions. I see him looking for people to shoot at, and when he saw someone, then he was cranking off shots, but not just for the glass breaking effect....

Minute or so is definitely way off center IMHO...

JD
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