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Old 02-14-2009, 01:15 AM   #21
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OK I just went on Amazon and ordered it. I know it will only further bolster what I already know to be true...

God help us
I won't kid you, it's a little dry, but the numbers, and the facts, are staggering. It's truly a staggering amount of information that will scare the pants off you.

Please post after you read the book and let us know what you think HB68 - You are a man of the world and have been around, plus you have Military background, so I would be interested in your opinions of the book....

JD
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Old 02-14-2009, 01:29 AM   #22
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thanks for the book request, i just got back into reading again just finished "SHOOTER" not to be confused with the movie. this is about Gunnery SGT. Jack Coughlin and CAPT. Casey Kuhlman. it was pretty good now im moving to another book about a nazi sniper. i wonder if my local library will have a copy of America Alone

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Old 02-14-2009, 04:41 AM   #23
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I'd just like to throw in a few cents here...

The kind of extreme behavior that leads to terrorist actions or this gihad stuff is just that: Extremist Islamic behavior.

Most Muslims DO NOT strap bombs on their bodies and go to meet their 72 virgins.

However, their law is their law. They feel strongly about tradition and obedience. Islam loosely translates to "submission to God".

Western culture, well, we too have our beliefs. Women don't have to wear veils, can do whatever the hell they wish to do, and have all the rights that men have. These are big no-no's in Islam...

Who is to judge that what we consider harsh is wrong? Yes, its wrong according to OUR western culture, but its THE LAW in their society.

And it is exactly this thinking of 'right and wrong' that continues to fuel the hatred and war..


one of my favorite quotes (not sure of the author)

The driving force between the difference of good and evil is perception.


now, this all being said....Sure, I think it is terrible what this woman must suffer. But we cannot play judge, jury, and executioner simply because we do not share the same beliefs. Somewhere over there is a group of men thinking "Those bloody American idiots....they just don't get it"...

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Old 02-14-2009, 12:13 PM   #24
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...

And it is exactly this thinking of 'right and wrong' that continues to fuel the hatred and war..
... But we cannot play judge, jury, and executioner simply because we do not share the same beliefs. Somewhere over there is a group of men thinking "Those bloody American idiots....they just don't get it"...
Are you effin kidding me? Sure, morals, values, and ethics are and can be somewhat based in religion but to lay the "oh we just dont understand each other" argument up for this one is beyond reason. Protecting rapists, murderers and child molesters under an umbrella of a false religion is not right. Live and let live, right? Ever heard of the crime of indifference? Mostly applied to a little event we like to call the Holocaust. Oh, I'm not a nazi, so I am turning my head. That was the "culture" of the time in Europe, so I guess we should have just turned a blind eye to it and not applied our American (not western) morals to the situation.
I hope you dont take this as a personal attack, it isn't. I just absolutely disagree with the viewpoint. I can only hope you are in the minority.
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Old 02-14-2009, 12:39 PM   #25
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Are you effin kidding me? Sure, morals, values, and ethics are and can be somewhat based in religion but to lay the "oh we just dont understand each other" argument up for this one is beyond reason. Protecting rapists, murderers and child molesters under an umbrella of a false religion is not right. Live and let live, right? Ever heard of the crime of indifference? Mostly applied to a little event we like to call the Holocaust. Oh, I'm not a nazi, so I am turning my head. That was the "culture" of the time in Europe, so I guess we should have just turned a blind eye to it and not applied our American (not western) morals to the situation.
I hope you dont take this as a personal attack, it isn't. I just absolutely disagree with the viewpoint. I can only hope you are in the minority.
I hope so also, hilbilly68. I have to watch myself, but I have thoughts of SOME people from SOME of our most liberial states, can have different thinking from my own. These states (and people) are the reason that our gun rights are on constant alert. When this thinking addresses Islam really opens another "Can of Worms"
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Old 02-14-2009, 02:23 PM   #26
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Are you effin kidding me? Sure, morals, values, and ethics are and can be somewhat based in religion but to lay the "oh we just dont understand each other" argument up for this one is beyond reason. Protecting rapists, murderers and child molesters under an umbrella of a false religion is not right. Live and let live, right? Ever heard of the crime of indifference? Mostly applied to a little event we like to call the Holocaust. Oh, I'm not a nazi, so I am turning my head. That was the "culture" of the time in Europe, so I guess we should have just turned a blind eye to it and not applied our American (not western) morals to the situation.
I hope you dont take this as a personal attack, it isn't. I just absolutely disagree with the viewpoint. I can only hope you are in the minority.
The crime the Nazi's were committing was just that. A Crime. There were no laws saying "Adolf Hitler and his minions can take millions of Jews, or anyone he just doesn't like, and ship them off to death camps". Hence why the world stepped in to enforce the fact that what was happening was in fact a crime.

But their Islamic culture has laws, written and passed, that state that they can do these things, and that this is the way things are. Technically, they are not violating any laws. For example, what country can step in and say "America enforces capital punishment, this is a crime against the world, we must declare WWIII" ? That is just one of our laws that We the People have set in stone.

Now, morally as I stated, I do NOT agree with her punishment. I think it is an outrage. But there is no legal basis for ANYTHING we can do about it, because they are not violating any laws.

And Hillbilly, I do not view that as an attack. After all is said and done, were still on the same team
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:50 PM   #27
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False H - I would agree with you that they are doing what is "allowed" under their law.

But at the moment that they want to subject non-believers to their laws, they are no different than anyone else, including the Nazi's and our own Dem / So-cial-ist opposition here in the states.

What is right, or "allowed" for you, doesn't mean it's allowed, or right, to me.

We don't have Sharia Law - and several countries outside of the middle East did not either. Until such time that Muslims started immigrating to countries like France, The UK, Canada, Sweden, Norway, Spain, etc.

Once they got there, they started to bleed the system dry with State Assistance, Welfare, Public Housing Assistance and a ton of other programs.

At the same time, they started bringing more and more like minded members into the "communities".

Pretty soon they got so many people that they were able to start voting people of their Faith / Societial Influenece / "Religion" into small, low level positions of public office. Starting small with school boards and parks & rec departments.

Pretty soon they were able to expand and actually get some real power. Then it was too late. That is why Denmark all but shutdown their immigration and the EU has been trying to "force" them to accept more immigrants.

The 'Marks made a decision that being eaten alive from a cancerous inside and being forced closer to Sharia Law was not for them.

Here is an example of exactly what I am talking about of how it starts small:

Tyson Chicken Holiday Swap

Now, extrapolate that out for another "generation" and tell me where we are headed thru appeasement.

JD

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Old 02-14-2009, 07:55 PM   #28
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Where is the public renouncement from the muslim community for the acts of violence they have executed in the name of their religion? We see outcries over cartoons, but no one has ever come out from that community and renounced the muslims (notice I didnt say Saudis, Jordanians etc) that attacked our civilian population. They never will. I agree, there are good men everywhere. Legal or not, there is never any reason for immoral behavior. Silence is consent when it comes to injustice.

Oh, and thanks JD, just when I thought my day couldn't get any worse, I come back and see your chicken caca. Thanks. It is too early in the day to start drinking too. Tyson. Well, that is the last nickel those chicken f'ers will get outta my household. We are in the age of the death of outrage, the age of apathy and appeasement. I feel a deep sense of dread about the world we will hand over to my son. One of my mentors always taught me that one of the qualities that sets good leaders apart is the recognition (anticipation) of change. No one raindrop thinks it is responsible for the flood. Small steps like this (like JD said) are just the beginning.

Ill leave it at that. Its 5 oclock somewhere.

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Old 02-15-2009, 05:58 PM   #29
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I guess another point I may try to redeem myself with is this:

Trying to convince the Islamic people that their 'religion' is not basis for law, or should be changed, would be akin to pissing into the face of a hurricane.

These people have been following their religion for thousands of years. The extremists have been fighting a holy war for the same amount of time. They are so devout that, afaik, their laws haven't changed much since the time dinosaurs roamed the earth (okay, maybe a little exaggerated there).

Short of a miracle, or a few well-placed tacti-cool nukes, I sadly see no change or stopping their way of life. If we went with the latter, we would be no better than Hitler and the Nazis....a genocide to remove their way of life from the planet. And then that puts us in extremist's shoes...declaring a 'holy war' of sorts based solely on disagreement of religious views.

Now, i'm going to once more clarify what i'm writing. I in NO way, shape, or form, agree with what has happened with the woman in the story, or thousands of untold stories of other women and the crimes committed against them that have gone unpunished. I'm just pointing out that we cannot force these people to change their ways without , in a sense, becoming 'terrorists' ourselves. The only thing we can do is pressure their leaders and lawmakers to adopt changes in their beliefs.....and God help the people in charge of that.

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Old 02-15-2009, 06:55 PM   #30
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Sorry HB68 - I report the facts as they are exposed to me. There's cold beer in the fridge, grab an extra on the way by would you?

FalseH - I would agree that we can not force our way of life on "them" - but we have every right to expect them, if they are going to continue their ways of life, to speak up and reclaim their "non violent" lifestyle in the eyes of the world.

By not condemning the actions of the "extremists" they are, in fact, endorsing them. By not policing themselves, and allowing violence in their name, they are bringing hate and resentment upon themselves.

Their lifestyle is not one appeasement. Their lifestyle is not one of acceptance. Their liefstyle IS one of violence, one of hatred, one of dominance and outright mistreatment of everyone that is not of their "way of mind".

Now, I don't have any problem with someone worshipping anyone, or anything, that they find Faith in. I have no problem with religion, it's just not for me.

BUT - don't expect me to stand down, or salute and move on, when your "religion" gives you every "right" to try and enforce what you believe on me and mine.

I don't care if you worship, J.C., a coke bottle, or the Queen of Sheeba - you come near me and mine with bad intentions, you can expect a very serious and violent reception.

Being religious, steeped in years of the same "religious" actions, doesn't mean what you are doing in this day in age is correct - it just means you haven't evolved....

JD

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