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-   -   Live Tissue Training (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f12/live-tissue-training-18108/)

DOC_Hinman 09-16-2009 01:34 AM

Live Tissue Training
 
I'm new here, so I'll give a quick intro. I am active duty Army, a medic in 3rd ID.
I have heard that there are civillian companys that can provide both EMS and Military medics with live tissue training. I havent heard much details about it because of nondisclosure agreements (thank you PETA), but what I have heard is the animals, usualy swine or goats, are kept unconsious from before it begins untill they die, either from **** ups or leathal injection at the end of the day.

My question is: Does anyone here have a problem with this kind of training for medical personel? I think its a great idea, but i'm kind of biased. I want the best, most realistic training possible before my boots hit the ground overseas. Would most rational people support this idea, or is in not just PETA nuts who would be upset?

Also, I heard that they cant use "ballistic injuries," aka "shoot the damn thing and then take care of it." Ideas on this? Ok to cut but not shoot? What about burns? or amputations? If you think its ok to do in the first place, where should the line be drawn on the injuries they can recieve, if at all?

Witchdoctor 4-Hotel

bgeddes 09-16-2009 01:52 AM

When I got out of the Army and left Ft. Bragg (20ish years ago) I KNOW they were still using the 'Goat lab' at Fort Sam. The SF medics all had to complete it to pass. If I recall it was a gut shot .30-06 on a full grown goat.

For that level of training, I have zero problem with it. The folks training for that job don't have years to do an internship and learn to treat high level trauma. I'm on the fence for Civilians, stuff like this tends to get out of hand.

skullcrusher 09-16-2009 02:00 AM

Imho, animals in full is good to go. Pigs, goats, cows, manitees, dolphins, koalas, etc. Why not chimps?

Human trauma training should be done in Emergency Rooms of established hospitals.

IGETEVEN 09-16-2009 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOC_Hinman (Post 160347)
I'm new here, so I'll give a quick intro. I am active duty Army, a medic in 3rd ID.
I have heard that there are civilian companys that can provide both EMS and Military medics with live tissue training. I haven't heard much details about it because of nondisclosure agreements (thank you PETA), but what I have heard is the animals, usually swine or goats, are kept unconscious from before it begins until they die, either from **** ups or lethal injection at the end of the day.

My question is: Does anyone here have a problem with this kind of training for medical personel? I think its a great idea, but i'm kind of biased. I want the best, most realistic training possible before my boots hit the ground overseas. Would most rational people support this idea, or is in not just PETA nuts who would be upset?

Also, I heard that they cant use "ballistic injuries," aka "shoot the damn thing and then take care of it." Ideas on this? Ok to cut but not shoot? What about burns? or amputations? If you think its ok to do in the first place, where should the line be drawn on the injuries they can receive, if at all?

Witchdoctor 4-Hotel


This is as realistic trauma soft tissue and stabilization medical training you will receive, if they are still allowing it to take place. I will not go into details about this training and the type of trauma tissue injuries these animals are presented with for training and labs on a this open forum. I will say I participated in a number of them and was required to stabilize and keep alive my traumatized "animal patient" in order to graduate my SF 18D medical course training.

Please PM me if you would like me to go into greater detail on this subject and discuss it further.

Also, I had to correct a lot of your spelling there soldier, pay closer attention to detail, you are not a doctor yet. :)

Jack

skullcrusher 09-16-2009 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IGETEVEN (Post 160367)
This is as realistic trauma soft tissue and stabilization medical training you will receive, if they are still allowing it to take place. I will not go into details about this training and the type of trauma tissue injuries these animals are presented with for training and labs on a this open forum. I will say I participated in a number of them and was required to stabilize and keep alive my traumatized "animal patient" in order to graduate my SF 18D medical course training.

Please PM me if you would like me to go into greater detail on this subject and discuss it further.

Also, I had to correct a lot of your spelling there soldier, pay closer attention to detail, you are not a doctor yet. :)

Jack

Hell, Jack, why not correct punctuation as well. Conjunction function, my friend.

IGETEVEN 09-16-2009 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skullcrusher (Post 160372)
Hell, Jack, why not correct punctuation as well. Conjunction function, my friend.

True, I will give him a break.............this time. :)

Jack

DOC_Hinman 09-16-2009 02:35 AM

Apologies for my misspelling and lack of proper grammar. My IBA needed cleaning, and I was in a rush once I looked in the lower right hand corner.
Also, I apologize if my name offends, I just chose what my tankers call me.

DOC_Hinman 09-16-2009 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgeddes (Post 160359)
When I got out of the Army and left Ft. Bragg (20ish years ago) I KNOW they were still using the 'Goat lab' at Fort Sam. The SF medics all had to complete it to pass. If I recall it was a gut shot .30-06 on a full grown goat.

For that level of training, I have zero problem with it. The folks training for that job don't have years to do an internship and learn to treat high level trauma. I'm on the fence for Civilians, stuff like this tends to get out of hand.

You say you don't have a problem with "that level of training." Is that just for SF guys, or military medicine in general. I'm just a run of the mill, one per platoon, PFC Combat Medic. But when I go outside the wire, I'm responsible for that entire platoon. Short of a company level mission, I'm the only medic out there. Short of a battalion level movement, I provide the highest level of care. Sure, the NCO's have more experience, but unless our PA comes with us, everyone has had the same training. So do I deserve Live Tissue Training, or is it just the 18D MOS who gets it?

DOC_Hinman 09-16-2009 02:49 AM

bgeddes, I'm sorry if I came across as agressive in my last post. I just would like clarification, I'm not trying to attack you.

DOC_Hinman 09-16-2009 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skullcrusher (Post 160366)
Imho, animals in full is good to go. Pigs, goats, cows, manitees, dolphins, koalas, etc. Why not chimps?

Human trauma training should be done in Emergency Rooms of established hospitals.

I would love to do that. However, there are a lot of medics, and not so many trauma patients. Also, most of the wounds in civilian ERs are unlike the kind we are likely to encounter. Even GSWs are likely to be by pistols and small caliber rifles, instead of the high velocity rifle, shrapnel, and blast injuries medics are likely to see. I could see benefit from working at a burn center.


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