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Old 12-05-2012, 06:19 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by bsdavis4296 View Post
@mosin....
Tears shed over this..... Do you mind if I quote this later on? For academic purposes, that is.

For me, I own firearms for several reasons. It keeps power with the people, where it should be.

I believe in a very conservative approach to economics, and to the private sectors of social issues, and a very liberal approach to government, and other political issues. I classify myself as a free-market socialist, but find my self most in agreement with the American libertarian party. I believe in (a) strong central government(s), but I also believe in having a republic, union, or preferably, a confederation, so all Americans can be members of governments in which In which they can most identify. Along with this, I believe, unfortunately, that the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to individual rights, but I digress. In America, our state governments, and federal (national) governments both make gun laws. These laws can cover anything from concealed carry of firearms (Illinois does not allow the public carry of firearms for defense), to bullet use (loading hollow points, or other expanding ammunition into guns is illegal in California) to total restriction (The city of New York, for example, does not allow the ownership of firearms at all). I, a proud Mississippian, personally believe that it is that individual state which has the right to determine ownership of firearms for non-hunting purposes. We are slowly loosing our gun rights in the U.S. and it doesn't make sense to my why. Now, let me explain my thought process.

First, safety/defense. It has been proven, time and time again, that societies WITH guns are less violent and more democratic than societies WITHOUT guns. Switzerland, where it is required by law, due to their military policies, that ALL citizens have a rifle in their household. Guess what? Switzerland is one of, if not still the least violent country in the world. When the UK banned firearms, violent crime rates became incredibly high. In the U.S, states with the most lenient gun laws are typically the least violent. Let me load a scenario for you: someone, armed with a weapon, even just with a knife, breaks into your house, with the intend to steal, and/or rape, or harm you or your given family member. Would you rather shoot, and possibly kill that (violent) person in defense, or let them do the same to your (innocent) family? Obviously, a sane person would want a gun. Unless of course, they have been sold on the false premise that the police can "protect" you. It takes ~20 minutes for police to arrive at my house, and if an individual waits that long, the given person will most likely be dead. I keep a beretta 92sb-c pistol next to my bed, it is military grade. I keep it loaded alternating with 9mm hollow points, and glaser safety slugs, to maximize damage, while minimizing damage. I would rather kill than be killed, as most would. See Mosin's post on this... It is beautiful.

Secondly, for fun. If you ever get the chance to shoot, you will understand. It is a powerful experience, and one that can become addictive. Knowing you have a tool in your hand that is powerful enough to do what it does is captivating.... It's like a drug. Wether it be shooting the small .22 at close range, just recreationally or shooting a powerful 30.06 in a competition, you will have a blast. It is hard to describe to a non-gun owner.

Art: Compare firearms to the works of Da Vinci or Van Gogh. They can be ruthless and powerful, or beautiful and precise... That is why I have guns that I don't want to shoot...., I would NEVER dream of firing off a limited edition silver plated 1911- 1 of 500 made, fit with custom sapphire grips.... While fully capable of launching the mighty .45 acp down-range, it would never happen. Guns can be both fine art, and tools of death... This is a reason they are so enthralling. Take a look at the pictures I attach below, you will see what I mean. They were sadly confiscated, and defaced in the UK firearms ban... Sickening, like burning the Mona Lisa....

Hunting.: Many like to live off of the land, like their forefathers. Hunting is a world-wide tradition, and even though I personally don't hunt, it is a sport that can't be forgotten.

Freedom: Most importantly, freedom... In any democracy, it is essential to keep the people in power. For this to be done, they must be armed. No one has said this better, than American founding father, Thomas Jefferson. I have pulled this particular compilation of quotes from John Petrie, who compiled them. Enjoy:

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” (Quoting Cesare Beccaria)

The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits.

No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him.

To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.

I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious. (Back then!)

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
---Thomas Jefferson.

All in all, firearms symbolize beauty, power, liberty, democracy, freedom, security, and happiness. While there is no argument that firearms can be used for great destruction and tyranny, their great benefits in the hand of private citizens far outweigh their sad cost. To strip someone of their inherent rights to enjoy what they wish, or of their self-defense is nothing short of tyrannical. The promotion firearms is inherent to freedom- to not condone their use welcomes tyranny. While it may not be today that it happens, a society without the right to bare arms will fall; wether it be due to internal conflict, rebellion, or a totalitarian government. To protect the right to bare arms is to protect everything I, and we at firearms talk stand for: the individual- for one to express his or herself in any way that individual sees fit.

And now for the art:
i do see your point, and you definitely come up with some valuable ones. but what about the, for example, "stand your ground law" where an innocent boy was shot? of course, the majority of legal gun owners, are quite possibly very responsible, and no doubt sane. but what about the guy who has a mental breakdown. you mentioned yourself that you slept with a loaded gun next to your bed. what if you had a son, or a daughter who'd gotten hold of that gun, without the proper knowledge

and about the defending your country part, then there is a lot of situations that can most certainly not be handled by a gun. If a terrorist attack, they worn't do it with a giant army, whey will attack from planes, from computers, or behind a computer. with NATO and UN, you wont just be invaded by the Brits. of course the UN and NATO probably worn't last forever, but at this point of time if does, and having a gigantic number of weapons hold by citizens wouldn't necessarily help them
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:23 AM   #132
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Heighten the risk of accidents. How is law abiding citizens with guns holstered and on safety going to cause an accident. Better yet how many times have you heard of someone accidentally pulling out a gun in a crowd and shooting someone. That would be never.
a gun can misfire, and i'm not talking about law abiding citizens. every law abiding citizen, can have a moment of anger, and do an act of evil which he will later regret. what if he is struck by momentary insanity, caused by a stressful job? everyone can have a mental break down, wether you abide the law, or not
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:34 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by bsdavis4296 View Post
That's the point... Everyone can't be trusted.

Trust fellow man? Give up your military, police, etc.

How would that work?
No disrespect, but your country is a little bit too small for there to be any (1st world) power hungry dictator to go after Denmark, they would go after say Germany instead. EX: Hitler.
hehe, non taken, we are an extremely small country, and sometimes it's nice just being known as the "capital of Scandinavia" (which isn't the case by the way)

before the second world war, there was extreme poverty in germany, and the germans saw Hitler as a way out (before turning crazy, he did help them out a lot, evilness aside). and while your country is still affected by the crisis, it is no where near that times.

and about the giving up police part, i guess you do make a point, but that wasn't exactly what i meant. as a Dane, socialism is a big part of our culture. we pay taxes, and it is high ones (if i remember correctly i pay around 40%, and it is for a part time job, aside of my studies). but in return, we get great healthcare, and responsible, well educated policemen.

i do believe that one can live without a gun, afterall, everyone i know has done it
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:37 AM   #134
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Ok I'm. Going to ask a question that we should be asking the UN and every other nation that gets in our business.

We are over here you are over there. Why dose it matter to you if we have guns or not. Me having a gun on my hip dose not affect you or your life or even your day by day routine in any way so why do you care. You are not going to lose or gain anything if I have a gun or not. We do not tell you what laws to make. Why are you trying to have an effect on us in that way. Unless of corse you are planing something that our guns get in the way of. (I know you are righting a paper and your not in a government position it is more directed to the other governments and media that worry about everything but there self.)
i agree with you on that point, and countries should probably keep to themselves for certain aspects of politics. as for me, i simply find it interesting. oh, and like your said i have no intentions of changing it, for what i care, you can by a nuclear submarine if that floats your boat
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:41 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Mosin View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Denmark

For some reason I can't figure out why "Occupation of Switzerland" doesn't return results.
oh common, how the hell would we stop an invasion from the germans? as said before, we are an extremely small country, and even if we did have guns, they could easily have walked right in. our country is right on top of it, so that really isn't fair what we needed was explosives, to blow up strategic places (airports, railroads, and bridges)
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:46 AM   #136
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i do see your point, and you definitely come up with some valuable ones. but what about the, for example, "stand your ground law" where an innocent boy was shot?
What innocent boy? Are you talking about the Zimmerman thing? The details of that are still foggy, but I seriously doubt that "boy" (who happened to be as big as a man) was completely innocent. Some of the evidence proves the opposite. Most gun owners will not pull their gun unless they believe their life is in danger. I'd have to have a really good reason to pull my gun. If someone puts us in a situation
of course, the majority of legal gun owners, are quite possibly very responsive, and no doubt sane. but what about the guy who has a mental breakdown. you mentioned yourself that you slept with a loaded gun next to your bed. what if you had a son, or a daughter who'd gotten hold of that gun, without the proper knowledge

People don't just have a mental breakdown. It takes a lot to cause a mental breakdown, and there are signs that warn us ahead of time.
As for loaded gun and children, we do several things to prevent that from happening.
1. We train them from a early age that guns are not toys, and we teach them about gun safety.
2. We teach them to never touch a gun if they ever see one.
3. We DON'T leave guns lying around. Loaded or unloaded. If we have children, we keep the guns locked up. You can get a small safe just big enough for 1-2 handguns and keep it next to the bed. It keeps them away from children, and they are right there you you need it.



and about the defending your country part, then there is a lot of situations that can most certainly not be handled by a gun. If a terrorist attack, they worn't do it with a giant army, whey will attack from planes, from computers, or behind a computer. with NATO and UN, you wont just be invaded by the Brits. of course the UN and NATO probably worn't last forever, but at this point of time if does, and having a gigantic number of weapons hold by citizens wouldn't necessarily help them
If we're invaded, the UN and NATO are not going to be the ones doing the majority of the fighting. The US military, and the US citizens will be the ones fighting. We could care less about helping them as well. Personally, I'd prefer the UN to dissolve mostly because they are constantly trying to get us to conform to what THEY believe is right, even if it means violating the US Constitution. That's a different subject though.
We're not worried about the brits invading. They don't pose a threat to us since we're very good allies. The drug cartels in Mexico on the other hand, are trying to invade the US. Do you have any idea how violent it is on the boarder? It's pretty much a war down there. The cartels pray on the people just because they want to, and the people are defenseless. If they had the same rights as we do, the cartels wouldn't be so eager to kill innocent people, because the people could fight back.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:51 AM   #137
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Unless your one of the 40 to 50.

Yes, America has more annual gun murders than your country but to blame that on the gun is to ignore every other factor.

What is the population of your country? Ours is 330,000,000.00
How many major Urban center does your country have? We have hundreds
How many different nationalities does your country represent. We espouse every race, color, creed, and religion on earth.
How big of a problem is the war on drugs in your country? Here it is the route of all evil.

Look Emil, you seem like a good kid trying to understand the American Perspective on Guns so I'm going to try and help.

After reading all of your responses through the first 5 pages of this thread, it's apparent to me that you were raised by good parents who unfortunately allowed you to be indoctrinated with the mindset of Collectivism. This mind set is 180 degrees opposite the American experience of Ruged Individualism.

When you break down all of Americas gun violence you see that over half of it is centered in our urban areas where gun right are as restricted as they are in your country. When you break them down further you see that again, the majority are fueled by drug proffits and organized criminal gangs seeking to contol these markets or by drug addicts looking to fund there next fix.

Our political class refuses to dissengage from the drug war creating an illicit trade with proffit margins worth killing for. Just like our alchohol prohibition of the last century which gave rise to organized crime, our current drug prohibition has created gangsters south of our borders with the financial clout to challenge the Mexican Government on a military scale. These gangsters have well established distribution channels here in the States and drug money fuels both corrupt government and gun violence.

Our reality is that the drug and gun violence flourishes in those jurisdictions with the strictest gun contol because the criminals do not fear the public and the Cops are well paid...AKA Chicago, LA, DC, Ect...

Were America ever able to sucessfully ban all guns we would quickly decend into the same chaos we watch nightly befalling the Mexican people.

Your 18 years have been spent in relative safety and comfort, free of war and strife, with little criminal violence, and in a country where the majority of the population shares the same social, religious, an societal values and norms.

Trying to compare your gun violence to Americas is sort of like comparing current hydro dynamic events or Vulcanism on Earth to the same events "or lack there of", on the moon. The socio-economic and motivational differences are legion.

Why should Americas law abiding sacrifice our tools for self preservation?
So that others can feel a false sence of security?

I'm sorry Emil, but questioning Americans right to guns is like questioning our right to breath. We do not share your trust of Goverment because history has already proven that to do so is folly.

You would do well to read up on human history and the Genocide inflicted on subject who shared your trust of Goverment. Perhaps an understanding that majority of human killing has been perpetuated by Governments against there own people will help you to better understand why American put our faith in first God, and then Self.

Tack
that was a great answer, thank you very much. you make a very valuable argument, when saying that it's mostly from drug wars. this is also the case in my country (recent gang wars between Hells Angels and Bandidos). i've recently made another report about los zetas, in Mexico, and boy, do i NOT want to go there. but mexico is a whole different story, it is struck by extreme poverty, and it is out of control. i sincerely hope that worn't happen to your country, as it would be horrible. but i am pretty sure mexicans are allowed some weapons, so i think it's more a question about their poor economy, than their lack of weapons (the citizens, not the gangs, they have a lot)
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:57 AM   #138
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emil, you and I can be friends

No, you have not had that right, and I speak not of you, but of my fellow americans that hold such a mindset. While it would be difficult for the US Government, or State Governments, and in most cases City Governments, to abolish all guns, we have seen an attempt here by Socialist type of politicians, to infringe upon MY RIGHTS. The previous Assault Weapons Ban was the result of un-American politicians, using lies and propoganda to influence others. The so called Assault Weapons Ban, banned MANY normal civilian firearms. Because some rifles had cosmetic features, they were included. The ban did not affect Machine Guns, but semi-automatics with magazines.

Our forefathers had and understood the need and right for citizens to hold modern weapons, on equal to the police or military. We all should be able to have machine guns, but we have seen an encroachment of our rights over the years.

The second amendement is ALL ABOUT KEEPING A GOVERNMENT IN CHECK.
It's not about hunting, or target shooting. It is about the citizens having the ability to remind the Government that ALL POWER COMES FROM THE PEOPLE.

Unless you can internalize what that means, it is hard to understand it.

This may seem revolutionary, but indeed the founders of this great nation were revelutionary. We admire their foresight, bravery and their words.

http://www.americanrevival.org/quotes/2a.htm
http://www.handgunclub.com/second05.cfm


If you were to come to America, you need'nt fear being shot. By enlarge, you will find that the areas where citizens are armed and carry to be the safest areas. I would recommend avoiding those cities where guns are restricted. In those areas, the criminals are embolden, since they know they have unarmed victims.

Schools and Theaters, with their gun free mentallity seems to be the choice for the deranged.
i would like that, it is always nice meeting new people

i guess you do have a point talking about your fellow Americans. and by all means, your forefathers was brave and revolutionary when fighting the oppression of the British, we do agree on that. but the world is more globalized than back then. With the internet, and international organizations, it's a lot harder to take over a country, especially as large as America. But you already have the largest millitary, wouldn't they fight them off? or would they be a part of the tyrannical government?
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:58 AM   #139
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a gun can misfire, and i'm not talking about law abiding citizens. every law abiding citizen, can have a moment of anger, and do an act of evil which he will later regret. what if he is struck by momentary insanity, caused by a stressful job? everyone can have a mental break down, wether you abide the law, or not
Yes a gun can misfire, if you ignore safety rules, and common sense. (keep you booger hook, off the bang switch).
The people who would resort to murder in an moment of anger are few and far between compared to the rest of us. Besides, if someone wants to kill you,m they'll find a way. Do they carry a pocket knife? That can kill you. Id there a blunt object near by? That can kill you too. They could also just beat you to death with their bare hands. Blame the person, not the tool.
As said before, going crazy, or having a mental break down does not just happen. There are things that lead up to it, and there are warning signs.
I cannot remember ever hearing of someone with a concealed carry license having a mental breakdown and killing someone. Statistics show that people with CCLs are a lot less likely to commit a crime than someone without one. (about 98-99% won't commit a crime. The crimes that are committed by that very small percentage are not always murder)
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:02 AM   #140
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that was a great answer, thank you very much. you make a very valuable argument, when saying that it's mostly from drug wars. this is also the case in my country (recent gang wars between Hells Angels and Bandidos). i've recently made another report about los zetas, in Mexico, and boy, do i NOT want to go there. but mexico is a whole different story, it is struck by extreme poverty, and it is out of control. i sincerely hope that worn't happen to your country, as it would be horrible. but i am pretty sure mexicans are allowed some weapons, so i think it's more a question about their poor economy, than their lack of weapons (the citizens, not the gangs, they have a lot)
That violence is spilling over the boarder into America. It is our problem as well.

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i would like that, it is always nice meeting new people

i guess you do have a point talking about your fellow Americans. and by all means, your forefathers was brave and revolutionary when fighting the oppression of the British, we do agree on that. but the world is more globalized than back then. With the internet, and international organizations, it's a lot harder to take over a country, especially as large as America. But you already have the largest millitary, wouldn't they fight them off? or would they be a part of the tyrannical government?
Some of the military would fight for the government, and a lot of it would hopefully fight for us. Our right to bare arms will hopefully discourage the government from ever trying this, because it would be a very bloody war that would have the potential the effect the entire world.
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