Originally Posted by 70cuda383
that's my thought process as well. 1,000 rounds per caliber. if SHTF, I have the ability to carry a couple hundred on my person of primary and about 100 rounds of handgun.
In my opinion, that's more than enough for your average gunfight. I can resupply later, either from my "home station" or by looting bodies of the dead.
if SHTF I do NOT want to make a Waco stand in my home. We all know how that worked out for them. I want to be light, mobile, and have a small logistical footprint. I'm headed to the woods, and plan to live off the land, and avoid as many people as possible, NOT go walking the streets of the cities looking for a fight. (that's assuming some type of economical collapse. if we go martial law and have another revolution...that's a different story)
but this guy was also trying to sell the "green tip" ammo at .80 per round, claiming that it's the only thing that'll punch through the armor that homeland security is going to be wearing when they come to your door.
he gave me a funny look when I said "I have a 3/8" plate of steel out in the garage that I punched holes in like it was paper, using standard lead core, copper jacket ammo, even my hollow point hunting rounds were punching through it like it was nothing"
To my buddy that I'm talking about...if you happen to be on this forum...I love ya man, but I think your position was just a little off the mark! haha.
If DHS shows up at your door, they have .30 and .50 caliber machine guns, helicopters, armored personnel carriers, and lots of manpower (largest civilian federal agency last time I checked). I seriously doubt anyone will have to worry about that. If the government wants you dead they will kill you and no quantity of carbine ammunition or semi-armor piercing ammunition is going to stop them.
If people are stupid enough to believe that crap and want to blow their life savings on ammunition that won't make it through a NIJ IV plate, I say more power to them. The government will just add more ammo to its 1.6 billion round stockpile (or whatever it's up to now) that they plan to use against us.
As far as 556 ball going through soft plate steel, try that same thing with armor steel. If memory serves, the aluminum armor on the M113 was designed to stop .50 caliber ball rounds. The point is, I'm pretty sure that very few civilians have anything approaching the type of ordinance needed to resist any sort of tyrannical government.
I really don't understand the whole "I'm heading for the hills" thing. I seriously doubt many people know how to filter water (have the equipment to do so or understand how to make a filter using natural materials), hunters might know how to kill game, but how long can that last with millions of other people trying to do the same thing? The only reason we can feed 300+ million people is industrial farming operations that use large quantities of refined petroleum products to produce massive quantities of foodstuffs for people and livestock. How many people know enough about wound care to stitch a good cut? If you break your leg running around in the woods and don't have access to quality medical care you're about good as dead in a week or so.
One person with a carbine and lots of ammo is not equivalent to a platoon of men with every modern implement of war available to them.
Here's what you can expect a platoon of men in a "civilian national defense force that's just as strong and just as well-funded as the military":
NVD's - Real NVD's (PVS-14, PVS-15, PVS-18, CNVD), not the crap that hunters use.
Thermal Imaging - Most APC's and even police helicopters have gyro stabilized thermal cameras. If people find AK's and AR's too expensive to own and operate, I'm guessing not many people have 10K-100K thermal imagers in their safes.
Body Armor - NIJ III plates, NIJ III-A vest, and NIJ III-A helmet. A high powered .22, like the AR-15 that everyone is so afraid of, isn't going to be very effective against anyone with all of that equipment.
Automatic Carbines and Machine Guns - Your average civilian has no access to automatic weapons and very few civilians have heavy machine guns or .50 caliber sniping rifles.
Armored Personnel Carriers - Very few civilians have the tools to disable an APC like the M113. All wheeled vehicles, to include the infamous Stryker (should be called a miserable 4 million dollar a pop failure), can be stopped with a single round from a handgun. Anyone here have a tracked vehicle?
Light Observation Helicopter (or Drones) - Again, very few civilians have a helicopter to observe and report to men on the ground and I bet nobody here has a drone or the training to effectively use it.
Encrypted Frequency Hopping Radios - You can actually jam them with the right equipment, but you either have to have the know how to make such a device or tens of thousands of dollars to purchase jamming equipment. Strangely, civilians can actually purchase the equipment, although using it is illegal. Incidentally, a frequency hopper will set you back about 5K-15K.
Gas Masks - Hard to shoot back effectively with watery eyes. They don't need to drop JDAM's or call in A-10 strikes. Simple tear gas and a squad of men with automatic carbines is enough to stifle most resistance.
So yeah, if the government wants you dead they have pretty much every conceivable advantage over you in terms of armament, support equipment, man power, medical care for wounded fighters, communications equipment, and observation equipment.
Can you go head to head against an APC and win? Yes, but nobody in their right mind attempts to stop a tracked combat vehicle with a rifle.
Can you win against an APC, helicopter, and a platoon of men? Let me put it this way, Christopher Dorner thought he knew a lot about fighting from having been in the military for many years and working as a police officer. Just about every man on the force in California was used to hunt him down and kill him. He could have been the smartest man on the force (although clearly he wasn't) and it would not have made a lick of difference with 1000+ men detailed to track and kill him. Rambo didn't last a week in a place as big as California to hide in.
Good luck with the whole "resisting the man" thing. My time in the military taught me that there is no more perfectly equipped, trained, and (after 10+ years of continuous combat) battle hardened force of men to go to war with. Whether some of them will oppose an order to start murdering their own people or not is immaterial. The ones who carry out such an order have just as much combat capability as the ones who oppose.
I generally keep a few cases of ammo on hand because I like shooting a lot. Fighting with the government is suicidal. Not that it matters, but the local police force here has all of those things. No need to call in federal troops or DHS.
My advice is to vote the SOB's out of office that have a problem with high-powered semi-automatic .22's.
This all started because an intelligent, but psychotic man with a high powered .22 decided he would start shooting at school children because he knew they would be defenseless. Our society values money and politicians more than our own children, which is why our money and politicians are protected with the best that money can buy while our children get a fat old man with a radio and pistol, if they are "important" enough to rate that.
Convince your friends and neighbors that if the "scary, high-powered assault weapons" are used for protecting our politicians that surely their own children are important enough to protect using the same weapons.