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Dillinger 02-12-2009 03:11 PM

Happy Birthday!
 
Happy Birthday President Lincoln!

In spite of your best efforts, we have seen fit to try and drive the country you loved so much into the ground.

BUT, there are plenty of good, strong backed members of this forum here to make sure it doesn't go out whimpering like a little girl with a skinned knee.

My only hope is that we are enough...

JD

bobbyb13 02-12-2009 03:53 PM

Despite our conflicts
 
Honored to know you through my studies. We are trying to uphold the nation you loved, and help create. RIP

user4 02-12-2009 04:39 PM

I am aghast at the history taught to you both... Clearly it is true that the victors write the history books.

Eff Lincoln and his division of the country and the subsequent murder of Americans. His abolitionist views were political, not moral. Much like how the Dems of today claim to be the protectors of the working class. It's total BS.

Now, let's move this thread to the political forum and have it out! ;)

Dillinger 02-12-2009 07:49 PM

You're from the South aren't you.

It's okay. We understand. :p

It's not meant to be political, I was wishing the guy a happy birthday.

And I truly believe the world was a better place for men of all color after Lincoln, as evident by the fact that today we have a person of color as President.

That being said, he was hardly a Saint. I never implied such.

JD

skullcrusher 02-12-2009 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ineffable (Post 70568)
I am aghast at the history taught to you both... Clearly it is true that the victors write the history books.

Eff Lincoln and his division of the country and the subsequent murder of Americans. His abolitionist views were political, not moral. Much like how the Dems of today claim to be the protectors of the working class. It's total BS.

Now, let's move this thread to the political forum and have it out! ;)

Had those money grubbing and power hungry land owners down there just gone ahead and accepted their fate and paid the shipping duties and kept their mouths shut, then the "Fugitive Slave Law" would have never been repealed. ;)

bkt 02-12-2009 08:44 PM

I grew up and went to school in the north. All the textbooks praised Lincoln as a genius who suffered terribly through the civil war given that he cared so much for every American; he only wanted to hold the country together and was warring against those who wanted to perpetuate slavery.

In grade school, we learned the Civil War was about slavery. That's it.

In high school, we were taught the south used some vague trade and financial issues as an excuse to wage war, but it was still really just all about slavery.

It has not been until relatively recently that I have learned a thing or two not taught in my history books. My opinion of President Lincoln is no where near as high as it once was, and I lean toward Ineffable's p.o.v.

The war is properly called the War of 1861 or the War of Northern Aggression, for it was not a civil war. The southern states worked diligently to get the government to listen to their plight, but they met with no success being either placated with meaningless words, ignored outright or denigrated. When they were left with no other choice but to secede -- much as the original 13 colonies were after their pleas to King George III were ignored -- Lincoln became the first American Emperor.

Quote:

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
The southern states had no desire to conquer Washington and take over the country; they wished to split from the United States altogether. Hence the difference between a war for independence and a civil war. But Lincoln saw to it our own government would rain hell on the people of any state who believe their government is not acting in their best interests; he set the precedent that the full might of the United States military forces may be used against Americans to quell the people of a state who wish to peacefully break from the union.

There are certainly many more pieces of this puzzle I haven't put together yet, and it may well be that he took the best course of action. And if that turns out to be the case, I'll apologize publicly for my rants about Lincoln.

But in the meantime, I'll let this date pass as just another day.

skullcrusher 02-12-2009 09:01 PM

I had an African-American Professor for a college mid-American history class. His premise was that the Southern land owners did not like the rising shipping costs of their goods (tobacco, cotton, corn and the like). The Northern Shipping Magnates were pressing for duties and tarrifs. It was a power struggle. Slavery was nothing but a tool of a issue. Once the Northern interest controlled Congress decided to ok laws restricting civil liberties in the name of unity, the Southern States decided to take drastic action to prove a point.

I am in no way a scolar of those times, and there's much I did not get from that Professor (other than a 'C'), it was eye opening to think of the war being about anything other than slavery. Polliticians were crooks then, and they are now. Waaayyy too many Americans died, and in a way, stifled our 'readiness' for subsequent foreign conflicts.

The only good things that came out of the 1860's is the rifled barrel and the repeater, imo.

Quis custodiet 02-13-2009 12:53 AM

Abe Lincoln was not the only controversial figure born on Feb 12, 1809.

Charles Darwin shares the same birthdate and also turns 200 today.

skullcrusher 02-13-2009 01:08 AM

How's Darwin controversial. All he did was document support of his thesis. Lincoln documented nothing. :eek:

cpttango30 02-13-2009 03:35 PM

I think everyone above is in one way or another slightly right.

Lincoln if you look at pictures was depressed deeply during the war. Look at pictures from before to during then to after you will se big change in his physical appearance and in the look in his eyes. He didn't want the way he hated the war. But he knew that the country could not survive if the south split from the union. Everything was too codependent at the time. So you should thank your lucky stars he did what he did or else we would all be talking like the brits and have bad teeth.

This is coming from a guy that had 3 A’s in American History and had the history prof telling him to switch majors.

Slavery really had nothing to do with the war at all it was used as a pawn.

If you want to do some good self study. Try looking for Dr. Charles Errico books on early American history.

Take Columbus for example we are taught that he was some nice guy that was looking for a trade route. When in reality he was really a ruthless rapist, murder, and killer of small children.

Columbus and his men would kill children for crying or making noise. The death would most of the time come from being thrown in to pits with two of their hungry dogs. The men would laugh and cheer as the infants were torn apart and eaten by the dogs. Within 1 year of landing on the island ( I think is Cuba but I forget) they had killed 90% of the native population. They had burned the fields and totally decimated the landscape looking for GOLD. By the time he made his third trip he was totally nuts I mean off his rocker. From sickness and who knows what else.


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