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Old 10-23-2012, 01:21 PM   #51
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There is an old saying something like "your rights end where mine begin". If you want to consider travel as a "natural right" like the right to a armed self-defense (as recognized by the 2A), then your "right" to travel on your own property or on unowned land doesn't impair anyone else's rights to enjoy their property as they see fit. However, if you attempt to exercise your "right" to travel through my yard/property, you are infringing on my property rights to enjoy my property. Roads and highways are the property of the government; to use these facilities without the permission of their owner would be a violation of the property rights of that government.

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Old 10-23-2012, 04:18 PM   #52
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That is the thing, simply traveling without having been trained first does not violate your rights. It is not until they slam into you that your rights are violated.

Your right to keep and bear arms does not stop at your doorstep or the edge of your property.

Im still hunting. As yall know google brings up search lists based on how many hits the site has gotten. Something that was on the front page six months ago may be hundreds of pages back today. But I assure you, the court cases are real.

The government does not own the roads. We do. Just like the government does not own state and federal game lands, we do.

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Old 10-23-2012, 04:46 PM   #53
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That is the thing, simply traveling without having been trained first does not violate your rights. It is not until they slam into you that your rights are violated.

Your right to keep and bear arms does not stop at your doorstep or the edge of your property.

The government does not own the roads. We do. Just like the government does not own state and federal game lands, we do.
So would you mind if a stranger "simply traveled" through your kitchen one night about 2AM? Simply traveling on my property without my permission (or a standing agreement) is an impairment of my right to enjoy my property freely.

I agree my right to an armed defense follows me wherever i go. In MS, we are allowed permit-free carry "concealed in whole or in part" on our property, in our homes, in our automobiles, or at our businesses (except in some federal areas).

As far as the government being "we the people" that is a farce in our current broken system of government. I think much blood will be shed before this government is "for the people" or "by the people". (not a terrorist threat bobthefed, just an observation of our current situation as paddle-free explorers of northern **** creek)
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:03 PM   #54
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So would you mind if a stranger "simply traveled" through your kitchen one night about 2AM? Simply traveling on my property without my permission (or a standing agreement) is an impairment of my right to enjoy my property freely.
Traveling on the roadways does not violate anyone's rights. Once they run into you, then your rights have been violated. What you ask has no bearing on the topic at hand. I don't even understand how you think there is a connection between someone breaking and entering, and someone traveling on the roadways.
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“Not everyone is willing to embrace liberty; liberty requires not just effort, but risk. Some people choose to delude themselves and see their chains as protective armor.”

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Old 10-23-2012, 05:29 PM   #55
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Some one dies every 12 minutes in the U.S. in a car wreck. Teenagers are the leading group to die in these accidents. It seems over 10,000 car related deaths are from hitting deer. The city of Newerk, NJ is the most dangerous place in the U.S. It seems drivers who are 16 should not drive in Newerk, NJ during deer season. This is the same kind of reasoning used by the OP.

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Old 10-23-2012, 05:29 PM   #56
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Eturnsdale,
It sounds as though you are putting the cart before the horse here. You argument is a catch 22 in that it almost sounds like you are advocating no restrictions on motor vehicle operation whatsoever, as though if you can afford the gas and you have the car, go for it. That is a hugely irresponsible stance.

Since we have been analogizing guns to cars (and it is a direct analogy), what is stopping a person from legally acquiring a gun, going to the range, pulling it out and firing away? Well, actually there is noting preventing this from happening and it does happen from time to time (I am sure we have all seen this person at the range.)

What prevents this from happening more frequently is the presence of people that this new gun owner knows who can train them in firearms safety, or in absence of that, people who are willing to to, upon observing this person at the range fumbling around with their new gun, stepping up to the plate and teaching that person how to safely operate their new gun. There is with firearms a sort of self-regulation where we have range marshals and experienced enthusiasts who are willing and able to do this. Add to that the fact that people are faced virtually non-stop with the "fact" that guns are dangerous and they kill people.

Conversely we have cars. That ain't gonna happen with cars. People don't view them as potentially deadly machines (far more deadly statistically than guns have ever been), when a person gets behind the wheel there is no way for a person to intervene in the same way that we can at the range. People view cars as a benign form of transportation and it is far more than that. Misuse (through ignorance or inability) is far more deadly than guns will ever be.

There must be some measure of regulation for drivers or we would have chaos on the roads. Given the number of drivers on the roads that would be disastrous.

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Old 10-23-2012, 05:36 PM   #57
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Traveling on the roadways does not violate anyone's rights. Once they run into you, then your rights have been violated.
So do we just say the Hell with all regulation and let the Darwinian Theory weed out the bad drivers? That is what it sounds like you are suggesting. Once a person "runs into you", then they are fined or put in jail or whatever. Then they just get behind the wheel again and do it all over. In the meantime you are still dead, or suffering the injuries of the incident. Your car is still wrecked. WTF? That ain't gonna work! Don't get me wrong, I am a libertarian more than anything else, but there are areas where we must have regulation and cars is one of those areas.
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:38 PM   #58
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If you believe that I think people who travel by automobile should not seek training then you obviously have not been reading my posts.

It could be disastrous, however I don't believe it would be as bad as you seem to think. And your statements of blood in the streets can be likened to what the antigunners predicted.

Anyway, Yes. You would see people seeking training in droves for both guns and cars if it were incentive based.

As it sits, the requirements to carry, and to drive, are but the bare minimum and do nothing to actually prepare people to exercise these rights. And they never can if it is mandatory. Mandatory training can not ever be proper. Incentive based training however can. And I promise you everyone would seek it.

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“If you are unwilling to defend your right to your own lives, then you are merely like mice trying to argue with owls. You think their ways are wrong. They think you are dinner.”

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Old 10-23-2012, 06:23 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Eturnsdale View Post
Traveling on the roadways does not violate anyone's rights. Once they run into you, then your rights have been violated. What you ask has no bearing on the topic at hand. I don't even understand how you think there is a connection between someone breaking and entering, and someone traveling on the roadways.
What if i you traveled on a roadway that i paved through a field behind my home? You wouldn't have to damage the roadway to be impairing my right to enjoy my property (the field, the private roadway). As an example, there is a private road toll road near Gulf Shores Alabama; there is a toll to use this road/property; merely using the property without paying the toll is a violation of the toll road owners' property rights, basically theft. An accident is not required for such a violation; nor is "breaking", just the "entering".

To use MS roads as a MS resident, i must pay a toll/tax/fare in the form of the fee for my MS drivers' license. I can drive in my yard for free; if you wanna drive a mower, you can drive in my yard for free as well.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:29 PM   #60
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Again you are asking nonsensical questions. Your thing about what you can or can not do on your property has been answered. Several times in fact.

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“If you are unwilling to defend your right to your own lives, then you are merely like mice trying to argue with owls. You think their ways are wrong. They think you are dinner.”

“Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent."

“Not everyone is willing to embrace liberty; liberty requires not just effort, but risk. Some people choose to delude themselves and see their chains as protective armor.”

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