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Old 08-10-2007, 05:57 PM   #1
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Default "Debating" vs. just lying

I've never had any objection to an open, honest debate on gun control. That's what makes any free democratic system of government work. The people debate the issues, come to a consensus, vote, and determine public policy through the representatives they choose. The founders had great faith in the ability of free, informed people to govern themselves wisely. So do I.

The problem is that the debate is not "honest," and the people are not "informed."

The most characteristic tactic of anti-gunners is, simply put, LYING--carefully, deliberately, and with malice aforethought--and their lies are supported, again deliberately, by the mainstream media.

Handgun Control, Inc., publishes statistics on the enormous number of children killed by handguns. The public reacts with horror, as well they should--IF those numbers were accurate. If you examine them, though, you find that they define a "child" as anyone under the age of 25; they include, e.g., the deaths of two 20+ year-old drug dealers in a gang shootout; they include the death of a 24-year-old murder suspect shot by a police SHOTGUN (not a handgun); they include the suicide of a 19-year-old after he committed murder; they include the deaths of armed robbers who were shot by store owners defending themselves; and on and on.


They publish statistics on the number of "children" killed in handgun "accidents", and claim that this happens daily; but, again, examine those numbers and you will find that they include "children" in their 20s and even "accidents" that are deliberate shootings and suicides. The actual number of children under 10 who are killed in genuine accidents in any given year is less than 15, and that has been true for decades--and those accidents almost invariably involve a loaded handgun left lying around by an irresponsible adult, often a criminal drug dealer or the like.

They routinely ignore, or "debunk" without evidence, statistics that show that guns in the hands of legally armed citizens prevent more crimes than are committed by armed criminals. They DO pay attention to reports of civilian self-defense, though; those reports are routinely included in their tallies of "handgun deaths".

They deliberately blur the distinctions between semi- and full-automatic weapons and between military and civilian weapons; they repeatedly imply that full-auto "machine guns" are available for casual, unregulated purchase.

These people are not ignorant or "confused". Go to their websites and you will see them speak openly about exploiting the ignorance and confusion of the public about guns. This is a well-planned and carefully conducted disinformation campaign worthy of the KGB.

And the major media are in their pocket. I have personally seen stories (plural) about semi-automatic weapons on the major broadcast networks that were accompanied by video of NFA-regulated Class III weapons in full-auto fire--and seen those same stories REPEATED, without comment, correction or alteration, AFTER the network had been informed of the inaccurate and deceptive nature of the pieces. The LOCAL media (depending on where you live) will sometimes carry stories of civilians defending themselves and their families with legally-owned weapons--here in Dallas, they appear a couple of times every week--but you will NEVER see such a story make the national news. That is a set policy that appears to be carved in stone. The falsified statistics of HCI and their ilk are slavishly parroted by the networks and big-city papers, while the countering facts and genuine, accurate statistics from the pro-gun side remain invisible.

Perhaps the most important key to judging the rightness of a cause is observing whether or not its adherents tell the truth. Simply put, if you have to lie to defend your cause, there must be something wrong with it. And THAT, to me, is by far the most effective and telling argument against the anti-gunners. If their cause is so righteous, why can't they promote it without a consistent pattern of deliberate distortions and outright lies?

Note on countering falsehoods and distortions in the media: By all means, write and email the major papers and networks with your objections and corrections--they need to know we're awake and watching out here--but don't expect it to do any good. You will inevitably be dismissed as a benighted redneck. Better to address your LOCAL media. They're much more likely to respond (cf. "A Small Victory" on this board). When you see a biased story on TV, write the network--but write the local station, too. THEY are ultimately responsible for what goes out under their call letters. If the reporting is especially bad, it could be fun to write their competition, too. It might be hard for an editor to resist a story on how a rival station or paper aired or published an egregious falsehood...

Don't just confront the lies. Ask why they're necessary.

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Old 08-10-2007, 08:02 PM   #2
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You're kinda preaching to the choir, but hey -- that's cool.

Today, it was learned that Reuters News was knocked down a peg or two by a 13 year old who pointed out the photos Reuters used to depict the Russians planting a flag under the sea in the North Pole was actually taken from the movie Titanic.

As for the media peddling lies, check out the "palliwood" videos sometime.

And there are all these "fauxtography" scandals that prove the media doctored images for the purpose of lying to the viewer.

Accuracyinmedia.com highlights a bunch of these sorts of things.

It has been said the Fourth Estate really is the Fifth Column, and it is sadly true. Whether out of ignorance, malice or a combination, the purveyors of "conventional wisdom" are lying to your face.

As for anti-gun organizations sensationalizing and distorting facts, you can count on that. What their agenda is is anyone's guess. (Circumstantial evidence gives us a pretty good idea what it is.) But it isn't good for us, that's for sure. Those at the top have an agenda. Many in the ranks are "useful idiots" who are ignorant and emotional.

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Old 08-10-2007, 09:28 PM   #3
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We know that they will do or say anything to get guns out of our hands. As long as everyday Americans have access to arms, their plans cannot be implemented. These groups fear guns and gun owners because they are intent upon subjugating the people to install themselves as a copy of the Ancien Regime French aristocracy. Armed citizens thwart their desire for permanent political domination.

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Old 08-11-2007, 12:00 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
We know that they will do or say anything to get guns out of our hands. As long as everyday Americans have access to arms, their plans cannot be implemented. These groups fear guns and gun owners because they are intent upon subjugating the people to install themselves as a copy of the Ancien Regime French aristocracy. Armed citizens thwart their desire for permanent political domination.
Well, maybe in the upper echelons that's the reason. But as a former leftist hippie radical myself, I can tell you that most rank-and-file anti-gunners are just starry-eyed idealists who really believe that deep down, everybody is a nice person and if there weren't any nasty old guns nobody would hurt anybody.

Remember, these are the same people who think that violent criminals are victims of society and that if we just treat them nice and give them another chance they'll behave. And that the best way to stop a war--any war--is just shake hands and go home, and your enemy will stop fighting too. They really believe that stuff. To them, the only truly evil people are Bush, Cheney, Republicans in general--and us.

They have a word for conservatives, who they think are all gap-toothed, illiterate bigots who wear dirty undershirts and drink domestic beer while watching NASCAR or WWF and cleaning our guns between sessions of wife-beating: they call us the "Lumpenproletariat". It's a German word from Marxist theory that means a benighted, ignorant and vaguely dangerous underclass that ought NOT have a voice in running the country. No, that privilege belongs only to the superior, the highly-educated (at properly liberal schools), the elite--in short, themselves.

Leftists, as a rule, don't really think for themselves; they believe what that read, and they don't read very much--only things that tell them how wise and enlightened and RIGHT they are.

Liberals are poorly educated (no, really; they know nothing of the thought of the Founders, of non-social ist political theory, of logic or real religion or actual American history), self-absorbed, and terminally naïve; but they're not, by and large, monarchist conspirators. I used to smoke dope with them, and "taking over" by force never came up. We all thought that everyone would just join us when they saw the wonderful, peaceful, loving new world we were going to build.

"Never attribute to conspiracy that which is adequately explained by arrogance, illogic and fuzzy thinking."
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Old 08-11-2007, 12:54 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by cnorman18 View Post
Well, maybe in the upper echelons that's the reason. But as a former leftist hippie radical myself, I can tell you that most rank-and-file anti-gunners are just starry-eyed idealists who really believe that deep down, everybody is a nice person and if there weren't any nasty old guns nobody would hurt anybody.

Remember, these are the same people who think that violent criminals are victims of society and that if we just treat them nice and give them another chance they'll behave. And that the best way to stop a war--any war--is just shake hands and go home, and your enemy will stop fighting too. They really believe that stuff. To them, the only truly evil people are Bush, Cheney, Republicans in general--and us.

They have a word for conservatives, who they think are all gap-toothed, illiterate bigots who wear dirty undershirts and drink domestic beer while watching NASCAR or WWF and cleaning our guns between sessions of wife-beating: they call us the "Lumpenproletariat". It's a German word from Marxist theory that means a benighted, ignorant and vaguely dangerous underclass that ought NOT have a voice in running the country. No, that privilege belongs only to the superior, the highly-educated (at properly liberal schools), the elite--in short, themselves.

Leftists, as a rule, don't really think for themselves; they believe what that read, and they don't read very much--only things that tell them how wise and enlightened and RIGHT they are.

Liberals are poorly educated (no, really; they know nothing of the thought of the Founders, of non-social ist political theory, of logic or real religion or actual American history), self-absorbed, and terminally naïve; but they're not, by and large, monarchist conspirators. I used to smoke dope with them, and "taking over" by force never came up. We all thought that everyone would just join us when they saw the wonderful, peaceful, loving new world we were going to build.

"Never attribute to conspiracy that which is adequately explained by arrogance, illogic and fuzzy thinking."

Very good post. I agree, american liberals/leftists/so******ts are misguided individuals.
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Old 08-11-2007, 05:29 PM   #6
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You are 100% spot on!

IF their cause is so righteous, why do they have to lie? It also helps them when they have the media/propoganda machine on thier side.
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Old 08-11-2007, 08:03 PM   #7
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You are 100% spot on!

IF their cause is so righteous, why do they have to lie? It also helps them when they have the media/propoganda machine on thier side.
It's more than mere help. These lying pieces of dirt would have no means to get their word out to so many people so often without the complicity of the media.
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:50 AM   #8
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Well, maybe in the upper echelons that's the reason. But as a former leftist hippie radical myself, I can tell you that most rank-and-file anti-gunners are just starry-eyed idealists who really believe that deep down, everybody is a nice person and if there weren't any nasty old guns nobody would hurt anybody.
I agree with that, but the rank and file don't move the agenda, they just follow the leaders. Unless they see guns, I don't believe that they care much whether you have them. The whole point of removing guns from our hands is for political domination. The hippies are just being used, they are the true lumpenproletariat. Useful tools, useful fools.

I would have responded sooner, but my e-mail notifications are still not working even though I changed my User CP.
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