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Old 01-21-2013, 04:18 PM   #1
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Default Converting an antigun Brit

Long story short, I have gotten into a pretty civil debate with a fellow from the UK. I think I am starting win him over (or at least admit that guns arn't the cause of all evil), but would still like to get suggestions on how to convice him that guns are not bad.

Here's how the whole debate has gone.

Quote:
UK

Nobody but soldiers should be allowed guns.
Quote:
TEXAS

That worked out real well for the Jews when Hitler took their guns (6 million Jews killed. Millions of others that the Nazi's deemed inferior were also killed), or when the Ottoman Government disarmed the Armenians (1.5 million deaths), or when Stalin banned guns (20 million deaths), or how about Red China (20-35 million killed)? Shall I go on?

BTW, all of this happened in the 20th century. It can and will happen again.
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UK

In the UK we aren't allowed guns.
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TEXAS

You are allowed gun in the UK. I know a few people over there that have several firearms.
Despite what many politicians say, guns do not cause violence. Let's use your country as an example. Not long ago, your country had a very low crime rate, yet your politicians felt the need to ban certain guns such as hand guns and some semi auto rifles. The UK's gun crime rate did go down, but your violent crime rate skyrocketed. The reason for this is very simple. Criminals don't obey laws. That's why they are criminals. The only people gun control truly effects are law abiding citizens. People who wouldn't have committed crimes. They are the only ones who turned their now illegal guns in. The criminals kept theirs.
I have also read lately from UK newspapers that your country is having problems with criminals getting hand grenades. If they can get those, why wouldn't they be able to get guns? As I said before, the only people those laws have effected are the law abiding citizens.
I have also read that your country has such a huge problem with knife crimes, that they are talking about banning certain knives, and creating knife control laws. Do you really think those would work? A knife can easily be made by anyone with a file. There is no way to effectively stop people from getting them. Just like there is no way to keep those same criminals from getting guns.
Now let's look at the US. Chicago, Las Angeles, New York City, and Washington D.C. have the strictest gun laws in the US. Some of those laws are stricter than the UK's. Those cities also have the highest crime rates in the US. Some areas of Iraq, and Afghanistan have lower crime rates than these cities. If you look at other cities such as Dallas, Houston, Oklahoma City, or really any city in a gun friendly state, they have a much lower crime rate even know they have less gun control laws.
The guns aren't the problem. The criminals are. Deal with them instead.
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UK

Better prisons are being built and action is bein taken to discourage young people from carrying a knife as 'protection'. Guns may nt directly cause crime, but allowing free access to them would skyrocket gun crime. I agree that you can't stop people getting hold of weapons, but most of the people who commit knife crime are (stereotypically) from poor backgrounds and don't have a very good education, so getting hold of a gun may be able them. But thanks for the intelligent reply.
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TEXAS

Thank you for the intelligent reply too.
I don't believe gun crimes would skyrocket. They would raise some, but not skyrocket. Overall violent crime would drop though, possibly back to what they were before the gun bans. When you get down to it, murder is murder. It doesn't matter if someone is shot, stabbed, or beaten. An innocent life is still taken.
As for allowing free access, we don't really do that either. If you are mentally ill, or a felon, you cannot have a gun period. If you buy a gun from a gun shop, you have to pass a background check. Most states do allow privates sales, but most gun owners are responsible enough to go to an FFL (Federal Firearms License holder) and go through the transfer process, get a copy of the buyer's drivers license, or simply not sell the gun to someone they don't know, or don't trust to be responsible.
Here in America, most guns that are used in crimes are not bough legally. They are usually stolen. No amount of background checks or gun control laws can prevent criminals from getting that they want.
Here in America, guns actually save more lives than they cost. Many gun owners get a concealed carry license, and carry everyday. Even if they choose not to carry, they have a gun at home that they can use to protect themselves with if someone breaks in. A very interesting fact about this is that most of the time, they will not even have to use the gun. The presence of the gun alone defuses the situation. I personally know several people who are alive today because they had a gun, and trust me. Shooting someone is the last thing they'd ever want to do.
I want to ask you what you would do in a life or death situation, and I want you to really thing about it. Let's say you are sitting at home enjoying the evening and a criminal kicks in your door. He is armed (gun, knife, crowbar, doesn't matter what) has every intent to kill you. What do you do? Will the police get there in time? Will you even have time to get the phone and call them? What about your family?
Now, after you think about that situation, think about it again, but this time you have a gun. Does the outcome change?
No matter what laws are created, the bad guys will always have weapons. The only thing those laws decide is whether you have a weapon or not.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:30 PM   #2
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Awesome...

Im stealing this, if you dont mind..

Quote:
Here in America, guns actually save more lives than they cost. Many gun owners get a concealed carry license, and carry everyday. Even if they choose not to carry, they have a gun at home that they can use to protect themselves with if someone breaks in. A very interesting fact about this is that most of the time, they will not even have to use the gun. The presence of the gun alone defuses the situation. I personally know several people who are alive today because they had a gun, and trust me. Shooting someone is the last thing they'd ever want to do.
I want to ask you what you would do in a life or death situation, and I want you to really thing about it. Let's say you are sitting at home enjoying the evening and a criminal kicks in your door. He is armed (gun, knife, crowbar, doesn't matter what) has every intent to kill you. What do you do? Will the police get there in time? Will you even have time to get the phone and call them? What about your family?
Now, after you think about that situation, think about it again, but this time you have a gun. Does the outcome change?
No matter what laws are created, the bad guys will always have weapons. The only thing those laws decide is whether you have a weapon or not.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:36 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Trez View Post
Awesome...

Im stealing this, if you dont mind..
Go for it.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:59 PM   #4
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Update ..........

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Well I'm not sure about this topic because of the many different arguments and points of view surrounding it, I'm just glad that new laws restricting who can own an firearm and what type of weapon can be owned are being put in place.
Quote:
TEXAS

Exactly what new laws are being put into place, and how do you think they will stop criminals? As said before, criminals have no problem getting grenades and guns on the streets. Why would any new laws help? They don't care about the old ones.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:59 PM   #5
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Well , remember one thing , even "Antis" are good for something , (Cover in a pinch) .

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Old 01-21-2013, 05:26 PM   #6
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I am English and have lived in the US for about 14 years. Its very difficult to convince someone from the UK on the benefits of firearms. They are so used to not being around them that they are scared by them.

I just had a debate on Facebook with my sister over them. I used pretty much every argument you have quoted and while it shut her down I don't really think she is convinced.

When the gun ban passed in England only 250,000 or so weapons were turned in, population was about 52 million at the time. That shows that even when they were more readily available not many people owned them.

The thing that amazes me with the gun debate is how many people are willing to throw away the rights their ancestors fought and died for. If you let them take one they will come for another.

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Old 01-21-2013, 05:29 PM   #7
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I worked for Toyota for seven years. We used to take some of the Japanese trainers and engineers shooting when they came over. Even if they were at first reluctant, after leaving the range they were die hard gun enthusiasts. If they were going to return to the US again, they would normally email a month or two in advance and ask if we would take them shooting again.

All it really takes to change someone's mind is a few hours at the range. Once they see the personal joy that they get from it and that the gun really only does what they make it do, their whole perspective changes.

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Old 01-21-2013, 05:31 PM   #8
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Forgot to add, my sister recently went skeet shooting and loved it, so she's a bit of a hypocrite lol.

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Old 01-23-2013, 12:14 PM   #9
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Update.

Quote:
UK

Because of the recent tragic shootings, the president is limiting who can actually own guns and automatic weapons and weapons with large capacity magazines are not allowed. This MAY help reduce gun crime crime but, as you say, criminals can still get them on the streets :/
Quote:
TEXAS

What the President wants, and what the President will get are two different things. He has already lied to try and get what he wants, and was easily caught in the act. To put it simply, if he had his way, no one could own any gun, most of our money would go towards welfare, you wouldn’t be able to say anything about him without being punished, and you wouldn’t have rights, only privileges that he believe you should have.
Trust me, I’m not kidding about any of that. He has already tried to pass laws that would do exactly that.
As for the high capacity magazines, they do nothing to make a shooter more dangerous. You can change a magazine in less than a second. It doesn’t matter if you have a 30 round magazine, or three 10 round magazines. In fact, the Virginia Tech shooter and one of the Columbine shooters used several 10 round magazines.
You want the cold hard truth on the matter, the Newtown shooting happened under an assault weapon ban. Connecticut already had an assault weapons ban, and I think a ban on high capacity magazines too. It did nothing to stop the shooting. So why would another ban stop new shootings?
The US had an assault weapons ban from 1994-2004. In that time, crime did not go down, shootings were not stopped, and the crime rate actually fell some after the ban ended. That ban also cost the Democratic Party Congress, and the White House. Bill Clinton, the president at the time even said so himself. In fact, he is urging the Democrats not to push for a ban now, because the same thing will happen again.
The majority of this country’s citizens do not want a ban, and a ban would do nothing to prevent shootings and crime. That’s why we will not give up our rights just for some false security.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:18 PM   #10
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Testify!!!

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