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Old 09-19-2013, 01:17 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Balota
None of us knows why they do it. But many of us would have the means to minimize the damage if concealed or open carry was allowed without restrictions on location.
I agree 100%, if we didn't have these gun free zones, there is a good chance that the carnage would have been stopped or minimized.
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:31 AM   #202
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Default At least someone is focusing on the real issue ......

Bipartisan mental health bill that is...
Bipartisan Push to Vote on Mental Health Bill After Navy Yard Shooting
Leah Barkoukis | Sep 18, 2013

Sure, the usual suspects are using the mass shooting at Navy Yard this week to call for more gun control, but after Senate Democrats failed to pass a measure to expand background checks earlier this year, and having just witnessed two anti-gun Colorado legislators get recalled, Democrats are split on whether or not to renew their push for gun control. Even if they did though, it?s extremely unlikely they?d get anywhere this time around, either.
What Monday?s tragedy has spurred, however, is a bipartisan effort to look beyond the inanimate object and instead at mental health. Politico has the details:
Sens. Mark Begich (D-Alaska) and Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.) said in a joint statement on Wednesday that the upper chamber should consider a mental health bill as a standalone measure in the Senate. That bill was rolled into the Senate?s gun legislation this spring as an amendment ? passing 95 to 2 ? but the underlying legislation has since been delayed indefinitely after a background check measure fell short.
?Given the clear connection between recent mass shootings and mental illness, the Senate should not delay bipartisan legislation that would help address this issue,? the senators said. ?The Mental Health Awareness and Improvement Act previously passed the Senate with near unanimous support, and we urge Leader Reid and Leader McConnell to work together to bring this bill to the Senate floor as a stand-alone bill that could be voted on and passed immediately.?
Reid said he would be willing to consider mental health legislation. ?Anything I can do to focus attention on the senseless killings that have taken place ... we want to stop people that have mental illness from buying a gun.?

Full story; http://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2013/33/18/two-senators-move-to-bring-mental-health-bill-to-the-senate-floor-following-navy-shooting-n1703539?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_c ampaign=nl
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Sounds good... but we are talking about the Federal Government here... and I fully expect some one on the anti side to try and backdoor something like capacity limits, gun/shooter registration, "assault" ban etc. etc. ...and derail the effort completely.

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Old 09-20-2013, 11:15 PM   #203
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It is fashionable for pro-gunners to blame Bill Clinton for disarming the military. Well, it ain't true. The pertinent DOD Directive was signed on 25 February, 1992 on the watch of Bush I. That DOD Directive has been extended by every administration since.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a272176.pdf

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/17/this-is-why-most-military-personnel-are-disarmed-on-military-bases-and-its-not-clintons-fault/

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Old 09-20-2013, 11:27 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by alsaqr View Post
It is fashionable for pro-gunners to blame Bill Clinton for disarming the military. Well, it ain't true. The pertinent DOD Directive was signed on 25 February, 1992 on the watch of Bush I. That DOD Directive has been extended by every administration since.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a272176.pdf

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/17/this-is-why-most-military-personnel-are-disarmed-on-military-bases-and-its-not-clintons-fault/
It can't be! Everybody knows its ALWAYS the democrats' fault!
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Old 09-21-2013, 01:33 AM   #205
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.....simply stating my position that questioning the base security in a situation such as this is foolish.
really?...base security utterly failed with this. From background checks to being forewarned of mental instability to smuggling a shot gun on base.
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Old 09-21-2013, 01:53 AM   #206
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really?...base security utterly failed with this. From background checks to being forewarned of mental instability to smuggling a shot gun on base.
Base security, meaning the guy manning the gate, had nothing to do with background checks or a forewarning of mental instability. That blame would belong to his employer and the company conducting the clearance investigation. I still don't place blame for what happened on their shoulders. The blame is squarely on the shoulders of the shooter.

As for smuggling a shotgun into base, I still don't blame the guy manning the gate. As has been covered ad nauseum in this very thread, gate guards do not have the time or resources to conduct a thorough check of every vehicle entering a compound. Once he has his base sticker on his car, coming and going couldn't be easier. All he has to do is put the shotty in his trunk.

Again, blaming the base security for something they couldn't possibly have prevented is foolish at best and not placing the blame where it truly lies at worst.
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Old 09-21-2013, 06:35 AM   #207
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Simply put, I blame the background checks. Two illegal discharges of a firearm, and getting booted from the navy should definitely icksnay his government clearance.

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Old 09-21-2013, 09:24 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by JW357 View Post
Base security, meaning the guy manning the gate, had nothing to do with background checks or a forewarning of mental instability. That blame would belong to his employer and the company conducting the clearance investigation. I still don't place blame for what happened on their shoulders. The blame is squarely on the shoulders of the shooter.

As for smuggling a shotgun into base, I still don't blame the guy manning the gate. As has been covered ad nauseum in this very thread, gate guards do not have the time or resources to conduct a thorough check of every vehicle entering a compound. Once he has his base sticker on his car, coming and going couldn't be easier. All he has to do is put the shotty in his trunk.

Again, blaming the base security for something they couldn't possibly have prevented is foolish at best and not placing the blame where it truly lies at worst.
Define it any way you like. The fact is, security failed at all levels.
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Old 09-21-2013, 02:32 PM   #209
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Email I received yesterday. Maybe this should go in the gun control thread, but since it's about the Navy Yard, thought I would post here.

Copyright 2013, On Target Media Group. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part permitted with proper attribution to On Target Newsletter.


Editorial

Gun control ain't dead but it has a good case of the flu

David A. Lombardo

Despite the most recent spate of whack-jobs killing innocent people, the subject of introducing more gun control legislation is, for the most part, on a very low simmer. Other than Obama, who continues to preach the need for disarming law-abiding citizens, most legislators have heard the siren call of the public's increasing interest in punishing those who continue to espouse anti-personal-protection ideology. This trend was most recently exhibited by that worthy endeavor played out in Colorado, where two Democratic state senators, including their Senate's president, lost recalls and were replaced by pro-Second-Amendment Republicans. And this occurred in heavily Democratic districts.

Oh, sure, the Congress' nutball Senators Feinstein and Durbin hawked disarming everyone on the planet, but it mostly fell on deaf ears. All the more so considering they trumpeted the need to ban those horrible assault weapons after Aaron Alexis shot up the Navy Yard in Washington. The news outlets picked up the cries for banning assault weapons again until it turned out the only assault weapon involved was carried by the police: Alexis used a shotgun. There's nothing more enjoyable than watching the network news talking heads apologizing for making things up and getting caught in the act.

In one of the great understatements of situational awareness, Chuck Hagel, the Secretary of Defense, said in a Pentagon news conference, "When you go back in hindsight and look at all this, there were some red flags, of course there were."

Well, duh. The Rhode Island police warned the U.S. Navy over a month ago that Alexis was hallucinating and hearing voices. He told police that he was being threatened by unseen people and feared that "some sort of microwave machine was penetrating his body." Navy security officials called the report "routine" and said Alexis was not a threat to the installation or to himself. Apparently they were comparing Alexis' behavior to that of the members of Congress, for whom hallucinating and hearing non-existent voices of support is considered normal, if not desirable, behavior.

But aside from that little quirk in Alexis' personality, he had a long history of documented mental illness, an extensive disciplinary record while serving on active duty in the Navy-you know, the same Navy that runs the Navy Yard-and three arrests over the past decade, two of them for gun-related incidents.

All that adds up, at least for the time being, to an impetus for harsher background checks, but that has also dropped off the fantail. Rep. Steny Hoyer commented at a politico breakfast that the recall vote in Colorado "does not bode well for asking people to vote for legislation similar to that which went down in the Senate just a few months ago."

Let's be honest: if the entire Federal government, including the Navy, couldn't figure out a nutcase like Alexis should have had his credentials pulled for the Navy Yard, what are they going to do better for civilian background checks?

Right, absolutely nothing.
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Old 09-21-2013, 07:15 PM   #210
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gun control laws do nothing to penalize those who break the law, but only restrict those who are legally able to own firearms.

it's been said more times than i can count, that gun control laws, restrictions, and bans are not in any shape, fashion or form about curbing violent acts of these mentally unstable people, or criminals, it's about controlling the citizens and their ability to own and possess firearms.

if or when, they can prove, that gun control laws can curb or deter criminal or violent occurences with firearms, then i might be willing to listen. when they can prove that criminals will abide by the same laws as the rest of us LAC's do, then i might be willing to listen. an intelligent person can reason, that neither of these two things will ever happen.

when Joe Biden made his proposals earlier this year, even he said, none of them would have prevented the recent tragedies that had occured. does it make any sense to incur more legislation or laws that are no more effective than the previous ones, when they won't have any positive results? no it doesn't.

the only thing IMO that deters criminal acts are citizens who are armed that can defend themselves and laws that enable us to be able to defend ourselves without repercussions from using deadly force if needed. more states with CC and OC, more states with Castle Laws and SYG Laws, no magazine restrctions, no restrictions on what we are allowed to own or possess and where we are allowed to carry. get rid of Gun Free Zones as these are simply areas that criminals and those few mentally unstable people use as soft target areas. prosecute the person who commits a violent act, not the weapon they used.

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