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Old 04-25-2013, 01:07 AM   #41
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Whilst I share your anger and feelings towards this POS, I agree due process needs to happen according to the laws of the land, which he is a citizen of, otherwise it opens up abuse of power.

But it concerns me that many on this site seem to suggest that if he was not an American citizen then anything goes and he should treated differently. Is that the case?
The terrorist that became a Naturalized American did so under false pretenses when he swore an oath of allegiance and broke it. He can be un-naturalized for that reason alone, the contract annulled like it never even happened. The US Service-Member is not covered by the Constitution we swore to defend. We give up our 1A the day we enter and other parts of our BOR's as well. Non US Citizens that kill Americans, on American Soil because they are Americans are the Epitome of the term "Enemy Combatant" at the very least and POW's if a member of an Organized Military that we are at war with

If you are not a US citizen, our Constitution does not demand the same representation nor rights that our citizen are required to get via our Bill of rights. We also cannot require you fulfill any responsibilities to our nation while you are here either. No Jury Duty, No Social Security, No Selective Service, No nothin, just enjoy your stay. Sovereign nationals in embassies on our soil, Students, and Work Permitted Foreigners are granted most of the same freedoms in our Nation but know before they enter, they must follow our laws while they reside in US territory.

They also know that they are not covered by the Constitution if they break our laws. We do not have the right to offer equal protection without equal responsibility. Do you think the Saudi who happened to be at ground zero in Boston gaves a rats ass about our laws or his responsibility on his first class flight back home? Did he get equal protection under the law? Did we?

If your here legally, and dont break our laws, your golden, if someone messes with you while your here we will prosecute them and defend you! If you aren't here legally, your a felon, plain and simple; if you break the law after you entered illegally, go to jail then you go home.

Committing Terrorist acts against innocent, defenseless people requires time sensitive and somewhat extreme measures of response to access future threat. Water-boarding and cranium cocktails save Americans lives and dont kill terrorists, thats a fact. The physical effects after the interrogation is complete are none. Terrorist lives to eat 3 more USDA Grade A meals with a cot to boot!

Someone sent Ricen to our President and two other Republicrats! Last week a big plot to blow up a train coming in from Alberta was scuttled before they got to do it. Add these two Brothers killing Runners and Spectators and a smart man would say there is a trend we need to stop and quick!

No we cant do that to US Citizens, but we already discussed that!
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Old 04-25-2013, 09:15 AM   #42
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The terrorist that became a Naturalized American did so under false pretenses when he swore an oath of allegiance and broke it. He can be un-naturalized for that reason alone, the contract annulled like it never even happened. The US Service-Member is not covered by the Constitution we swore to defend. We give up our 1A the day we enter and other parts of our BOR's as well. Non US Citizens that kill Americans, on American Soil because they are Americans are the Epitome of the term "Enemy Combatant" at the very least and POW's if a member of an Organized Military that we are at war with

If you are not a US citizen, our Constitution does not demand the same representation nor rights that our citizen are required to get via our Bill of rights. We also cannot require you fulfill any responsibilities to our nation while you are here either. No Jury Duty, No Social Security, No Selective Service, No nothin, just enjoy your stay. Sovereign nationals in embassies on our soil, Students, and Work Permitted Foreigners are granted most of the same freedoms in our Nation but know before they enter, they must follow our laws while they reside in US territory.

They also know that they are not covered by the Constitution if they break our laws. We do not have the right to offer equal protection without equal responsibility. Do you think the Saudi who happened to be at ground zero in Boston gaves a rats ass about our laws or his responsibility on his first class flight back home? Did he get equal protection under the law? Did we?

If your here legally, and dont break our laws, your golden, if someone messes with you while your here we will prosecute them and defend you! If you aren't here legally, your a felon, plain and simple; if you break the law after you entered illegally, go to jail then you go home.

Committing Terrorist acts against innocent, defenseless people requires time sensitive and somewhat extreme measures of response to access future threat. Water-boarding and cranium cocktails save Americans lives and dont kill terrorists, thats a fact. The physical effects after the interrogation is complete are none. Terrorist lives to eat 3 more USDA Grade A meals with a cot to boot!

Someone sent Ricen to our President and two other Republicrats! Last week a big plot to blow up a train coming in from Alberta was scuttled before they got to do it. Add these two Brothers killing Runners and Spectators and a smart man would say there is a trend we need to stop and quick!

No we cant do that to US Citizens, but we already discussed that!
I agree that the trend needs to be stopped quickly and I am sure behind the scenes special forces and the agencies are doing the the dirty work out of plain sight. See no evil hear no evil. This work has gone on for decades.

IMO Your constitution is not just laws, it's also your moral framework, and core values and enshrined in it religious beliefs. Based on this does treating someone different because they are not a citizen go against the whole concept of individual freedom and rights?

Calling someone a combatant is a convenient side step to moral values which you guys hold so dear.

We all know what we would like to do to these people but it creates a dilemma. If you allow treatment to non citizens this way do you not then you send out the message that only Americans have rights but also you are giving freedom to the government to lose their moral compass when it suits which may embolden them to do the same to their own.

If you look at the Boston lockdown many on here where pissed that the police would dare enter their house without a warrant. My point was that the government already feels it can do this because it's what they have been doing to non Americans for years.

It's the double standards that concern me. Give the gov.the licence to 'play God ' you may or may not live to regret it!
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Old 04-25-2013, 10:49 AM   #43
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The Constitution is Not a Moral Framework, it is Natural law to ensure Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness for every American. It was not intended to establish rule of law for the world, only our Nation. We do not Inflict Morals, we protect our Citizens Rights. All dealings we have with Non Americans come from treaties and accords with signature nations, not faceless religious zealots or dictators.

Times have changes, we are not being attacked by nation, were not at war with a government, we cannot act like this type of thing is the same as a war against another military fighting force, it isnt. There is no place in this world that is The Nation of Islam, they have no flag, no international standing whatsoever. Because they have nothing to lose, they seek to own and rule what is rightfully ours (See Palestinian Occupation on the West Bank); they are squatters, gypsies that have no roots in anyplace only extremism, they want our place and will do anything to get it.

Enemy Combatant is a relative term used to describe a person or group that attacks us that has no legitimate government they are acting on behalf of. Jihad isnt inspired by a government, its funded and supported by zealots that hide in caves and mosques. They were not elected to lead a nation, have no capital, no Flag, no legitimate throne and are not signers of the Geneva convention, they do not subscribe to Rules of War and we have no way to make them. We cannot negotiate with terrorists, they have no standing and therefore cannot be POW's.

Your not suggesting we empower terrorists with the same rights as Warriors are you? That would be ridiculous, they recognize no Rights, only dead defenseless Americans. We need only protect them from further Injury and give them food and shelter until we dispose of them properly. We treated some of the Gitmos so well, once released they went home and started killing Americans again!

Im not saying to beat them, enslave them or execute them without due process, they live by no law that we recognize as legitimate and are not protected by ours either. Equating anything we have done using enhanced interview techniques with the vile activities they got caught doing to innocent Americans is insincere. They have no human rights via their own laws, any they are afforded by us after they attack us are not associated with any accord or formative law, its just a bonus they have not earned but will still give them.

Its not a double standard to proactively protect our citizens first when all things have no chance of being equal. They have nothing to lose, no status, no rights, no responsibility and purposely attack unarmed and non participant targets. They arent Warriors, they are terrorists. They have no legitimate status because they want no status, just dead Americans!

Rights with no responsibilities are just another form of welfare, we treat their Enemy Combatants better than they treat their flock; folks like Richard Pearl might disagree that they deserve rights from us that they never got from their own "leadership" or afforded him.

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Old 04-25-2013, 11:14 AM   #44
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This is what I love to see in these forums, great reasoned, passionate debate, kept civil!

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Old 04-25-2013, 01:26 PM   #45
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This is what I love to see in these forums, great reasoned, passionate debate, kept civil!
i have to agree. Ifcshooter and WebFos both have a different viewpoint but i can see valid points in both statements.

some may feel that we should have no respect for those who have no respect for human lives and kill innocent people to further their cause. that these people acted as animals and should be treated as such. to say i didn't feel that way, would be to say i don't have human emotions like everyone else. but sometimes we have to put aside emotions and passions and step away, and make a decision as to what's the best for the greater good of all and also to do what's moral and rightious.

we can't deny that what these two brothers did was wrong and maybe even evil in intentions. their reasoning or ideology for committing these acts may be some time coming before they are known. but we cannot put aside what we know is right, just because of these cowardly acts, but must at all costs, preserve what we know is right and thats the rights and freedoms of everyone, even the evil ones. if we allow that his rights are abused or ignored because of his actions, we shall slip further away from what our founding fathers fought to provide for us. individual rights and freedoms for everyone.

we have to remember the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights is what makes this country different and what made us great. we cannot deny even the evil men among us, even themost basic of rights. due process of law in a court with a fair trial and impartial judge and jury.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:34 PM   #46
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I agree that our nations should defend ourselves in the strongest way possible against these forms of aggression. That is not in question for me.

It's the notion that your happy to pick an choose your morality when it suits based on where people come from and the justification in doing so. then complain when the government tries to impose a moral standard that you can't stomach.

Natural law is defined as unchanging moral principals as a basis of human conduct. I would suggest if you uphold moral standards as an ideal it transends boundaries.

America has often imposed it's will on others because they don't share the same ideals or morality. This policy has been supported in the main by your compatriots. just as we started the Crusades.

Belief systems however radical no longer have clear terriorial boundaries you can't pin a flag on an ideal or morality based on natural law.

By imposing your will on others to conform to your own version of humanity and concept of society you encourage others to do the same to you and therefore should not complain if they do so .

If you truly believe that everyone has the right to a fair trial, to be treated fairly whist incarcerated etc etc because its morally right, then surely Gitmo is a double standard.

Is it not hypocritical if under natural law you treat people different because they don't subscribe to your way of life. Is natural law exclusive to Americans?

If the gloves are off and it's dog eat dog then fine we are all on a level playing field and anything goes.

If you are trying to live by standards you set as an ideal,as you guys would say 'under God ' then surely that goes beyond your borders.

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Old 04-25-2013, 01:39 PM   #47
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IFCshooter, i agree with you 100%. very well said.

you're absolutely correct.

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Old 04-26-2013, 02:42 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by lfcshooter View Post
I agree that our nations should defend ourselves in the strongest way possible against these forms of aggression. That is not in question for me.

It's the notion that your happy to pick an choose your morality when it suits based on where people come from and the justification in doing so. then complain when the government tries to impose a moral standard that you can't stomach.

Natural law is defined as unchanging moral principals as a basis of human conduct. I would suggest if you uphold moral standards as an ideal it transends boundaries.

America has often imposed it's will on others because they don't share the same ideals or morality. This policy has been supported in the main by your compatriots. just as we started the Crusades.

Belief systems however radical no longer have clear terriorial boundaries you can't pin a flag on an ideal or morality based on natural law.

By imposing your will on others to conform to your own version of humanity and concept of society you encourage others to do the same to you and therefore should not complain if they do so .

If you truly believe that everyone has the right to a fair trial, to be treated fairly whist incarcerated etc etc because its morally right, then surely Gitmo is a double standard.

Is it not hypocritical if under natural law you treat people different because they don't subscribe to your way of life. Is natural law exclusive to Americans?

If the gloves are off and it's dog eat dog then fine we are all on a level playing field and anything goes.

If you are trying to live by standards you set as an ideal,as you guys would say 'under God ' then surely that goes beyond your borders.
Couple of points,

The crusades were a response to moslems who invaded what was commonly called "the holy land". The people living there didn't just one day decide to convert to Islam, they were forced to at the point of a sword. This is true of most countries that became moslem countries.

With the exception of Afganistan which is mess (and that is being charitable) and Iraq which will probably fall apart too, where has the U.S "imposed" its will on other nations that didn't attack us first?

As for the thug we are talking about, try him, convict him without a reasonable doubt as the law requires, and execute him, as the thug he is not as some martyr to a glorious cause.
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:50 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by lfcshooter View Post
I agree that our nations should defend ourselves in the strongest way possible against these forms of aggression. That is not in question for me.

It's the notion that your happy to pick an choose your morality when it suits based on where people come from and the justification in doing so. then complain when the government tries to impose a moral standard that you can't stomach.

Natural law is defined as unchanging moral principals as a basis of human conduct. I would suggest if you uphold moral standards as an ideal it transends boundaries.

America has often imposed it's will on others because they don't share the same ideals or morality. This policy has been supported in the main by your compatriots. just as we started the Crusades.

Belief systems however radical no longer have clear terriorial boundaries you can't pin a flag on an ideal or morality based on natural law.

By imposing your will on others to conform to your own version of humanity and concept of society you encourage others to do the same to you and therefore should not complain if they do so .

If you truly believe that everyone has the right to a fair trial, to be treated fairly whist incarcerated etc etc because its morally right, then surely Gitmo is a double standard.

Is it not hypocritical if under natural law you treat people different because they don't subscribe to your way of life. Is natural law exclusive to Americans?

If the gloves are off and it's dog eat dog then fine we are all on a level playing field and anything goes.

If you are trying to live by standards you set as an ideal,as you guys would say 'under God ' then surely that goes beyond your borders.
Are you saying that all humans are endowed with our Constitutional Rights by virtue of them entering our nation regardless?
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Old 04-26-2013, 06:56 AM   #50
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Are you saying that all humans are endowed with our Constitutional Rights by virtue of them entering our nation regardless?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
-Declaration of Independence.

Everyone has rights that they are born with. A nation is nothing more than a group of people within a set border. Rights know no borders. They are universal, and eternal. They belong to the purest saint and the foulest sinner, the richest king and the poorest peasant, the bravest soldier and the weakest coward.

What I'm trying to say is, If we deny that man his rights, then we are no better than those who want to take our rights away. If we think it is acceptable to deny someone their God given rights, then who's to say that we ourselves won't be denied those very rights some day?
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