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View Poll Results: Would our Founding Fathers revolt against our current government?
Yes 35 85.37%
No 6 14.63%
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:01 PM   #31
bkt
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You should have been around in the 1970/80's when US funded Irish terrorists where blowing up maiming and murdering people throughout the UK,
Not to take away from your experience or make light of it, but the difference between the actions of the IRA and Muslim extremists are significant, and the two should not be considered equals. The IRA did not overtly seek to mobilize the whole of Christianity, and they did not try to justify their actions to the wider Christian audience.

The total number dead since 1969 from the IRA is in the neighborhood of 3,200. That's a huge number. But visit http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ and check out the number of dead every year at the hands of Islamists. The IRA toll is dwarfed by the number killed and wounded in the name of Allah.

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But not withstanding I believe in the ultimate rule of law, if these people are guilty of anything give them their day in court, I don't know about you but that's what a lot of us are fighting for, as opposed to locking them up in a concentration camp!
You're looking at this as a purely civic issue, when it's not; it's war. In war, people kill other people without the burden of having to defend their actions. That is what makes war so very ugly and undesirable. This is the crux of the issue.

When you capture enemy combatants and you are still fighting, it is incumbent on you to extricate every shred of useful information from your prisoners as you are able because doing so may save lives on both sides.

A civil court decision made by a judge will earn the prisoners a sentence, and they know they only have to hold out 'til it's over and they're free to rejoin their comrades.
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:19 PM   #32
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You know you and I fundamentally disagree, there has been no definate proof of state sponsered terrorism on behalf of Iraq prior to the invasion and if there was proof of WMD I assure you we would have had the proof. I am give to understand that President Bush snr. had been threatened, but I am not aware it was nothing other than that.

You can not just declare that all prisoners held in Cuba have engaged in terrorist activities, indeed it has been substantially proved otherwise, one is further drawn to say if that is case why haven't they been brought to trial? In any case how we treat prisoners reflects our true values, I would not suggest that 'your heart going out to them', but if there is evidence against them they should have their day in court, and if convicted face the consequences of their actions.

Israel had consistanly ignored UN resolutions, I don't see any rush to invade them?

For someone who is well read I am suprised about your comment advocating a stronger responce in your words, to garner respect. I'm not sure how you expect to gain the respect by bombing the Iraqi population into submission and making an example of them...... I would respectfully suggest that you have definately got their attention, and provided an excellent training theatre for Islamic fundamentalists .

Oh yes....I've never mention the oil for food fiasco, but since you brought it up you have missed out the US with the names of countries with their hands in the cookie jar........
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:53 PM   #33
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When did I ever suggest that forces be withdrwn from Iraq? I didn't. All politicians where simply lied to, along with the general public, and apparantly even now the appears to be individuals who can not accept it. I think the invasion had more to do with waving a big stick after 9/11, and of course oil. It went pearshaped because diplomats and military commanders who had a depth of knowledge where no listened too. Now we have to stay and try and put it right..... War is a waste of life and this was a military disaster on a grand scale and has had repercussions greater than they ever imagined. But we are in it and have to try and repair some of the damage. The greatest loss of life is among the Iraqi people, who just can't win.........

Bull****! The greatest loss of life is among the Military, Islamo-fascists. and the innocent people that get blown up at their hands!
I'm sick of hearing the Liberal/So-ciali-st mantra about "oil" being the reason for the war! How about these apples mate -Our Military and contractors in Iraq are paying more for diesel fuel and gasoline to fight THEIR war than we are currently paying in the US! A real oil benefit there! Now I suppose you will tell me that we started the war, so we deserve it...I think we should be getting FREE oil for many years for what we have spent to liberate them.
At the time NOBODY countered the claim that there were WMD's and that Saddam was gearing up to use them. False intelligence briefings were conducted to ensure that everyone was on the same page. Where the differences of opinion arose, was over the decision to invade.

You are being hypocritical, you spout about doing the liberties, freedom of speech but when faced with a simple premise of justice for all you can't get your head around it.....and I find you jibe about sending the detainees to Europe a little insulting to be frank.

I believe in Freedom and Justice for All - but NOT for people picked-up on the battlefield or caught planting IED's to blow up US Sodiers and Marines! I'm also for waterboarding and any other form of torture that works. If it is possible to obtain information that would save even one US Serviceman/woman's life by hooking up jumper cables to the testicles of an islamo- terrorist, my only question is "where is the positive terminal?"!!! You in Europe have opened your arms and your doors to every Muslim that wants to come in. Recent events in the UK, Germany, and France, have proven that policy to be very dangerous and a drain on your economies as well. Hey, if the shoe fits....

We in Europe are at the front line of urban terrorism and have been for sometime, and not just from Muslim extremists. You should have been around in the 1970/80's when US funded Irish terrorists where blowing up maiming and murdering people throughout the UK, I was there mate, and now I spend my time operating bomb detection dogs on offensive and defensive operational searches for Muslim extremist groups. Before you criticise the attitude over here I suggest you visit and see for yourself...... and before you make some smart comment I have lived for a while in the States.....

Not a "smart" comment, just an observation of world events.

But not withstanding I believe in the ultimate rule of law, if these people are guilty of anything give them their day in court, I don't know about you but that's what a lot of us are fighting for, as opposed to locking them up in a concentration camp!

The detainees in Guantanamo are nothing more than a distraction from the task at hand. The New York Times had a field day with that story for over a month straight. Do they show how we treat the people of Iraq and how the re-shaping of their infrastructure and ecomony, at cost to us in money and lives, has improved their lot in life?. No, it doesn't fit their "agenda". It is used as a tool to distract and divide popular opinion. Compare the accomodations that the US provides it's prisoners with those of other countries and I say it's ludicrous to point a finger at this country's treatment of the detainee's. I'm tired of seeing this country being beat up by the likes of people that have disdain for our wealth, power and success as well as our freedoms.

As for your comments on the UN, well I have heard this clap trap rhetoric before, just not worth commenting on........
Of course it's not worth commenting on..those who support a "New World Order" and "Globalization" are the ones who would profit from it. It is clearly NOT in the interest of this "democratic" nation to be "ruled" by a conglomeration of self-serving third world ecomonies.
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Old 05-23-2008, 06:05 PM   #34
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Oh yes....I've never mention the oil for food fiasco, but since you brought it up you have missed out the US with the names of countries with their hands in the cookie jar........

What about that turd Kofi Anan and his son? Were they imprisoned? No! What about the current food stocks being held and probably sold for profit by your beloved UN instead of being distributed months ago?
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Old 05-23-2008, 06:57 PM   #35
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You definately need to get out a little more, act a little grown up, and see the big picture. Your country is not the only one getting it in the neck here, we are loosing people too.

Anyone who advocates torture is ignorant, and sacrifices the moral high ground (one for you here Jables), there is little of valued intelligence to be gained, and it's no good complaining in the unfortunate event the other side take your people and commit atrocities against them.

It's not for you, me or anyone else to assume guilt, if they have committed crimes put them before a court, and lets see the evidence. The rant about torturing people is that of 13 year old!

The trouble with you is that your view is that it's one law for you, and another for every other bugger. I really didn't want to get personal these are only my views, and the last time I checked I was still living in a free country.

Oh yes, while we are on the subject I don't know whether you have noticed but the US is surrounded my water, now assuming you have had more than a 12 grade education, you will also be aware that providing a Muslim has enough pairs of shoes he would be able to walk from a Muslim country into Europe (I know this because we did it in the 12th. century on the 1st. Crusade), that's why we are in the front line, and since I doubt you have ever been here I can't see how your in a position to comment. But I will be travelling with my wife to dine at a great Chinese in Rennes tomorrow, and guess what, although it's the capital city of Brittany region I will not feel the need to carry a gun, but I will be well armed with a pair of chop sticks.................

I do like the red quote thing..how do you do that?........
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Old 05-23-2008, 08:06 PM   #36
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@Boris: What you are forgetting is that here in the USA we do have due process. That is reserved for US citizens and not war criminals. I love how the international news media loves to distract. I'm not for the war in Iraq. I will tell you this from a moral stand point. If you go into a store and break something, you have a moral obligation to fix or buy it. We broke Iraq (as if it wasn't broken under Hussein) and it is our job to fix it if that mean we will be there for the next 100 yrs.

You are in Europe, you remember what happened when the world pulled out of Germany after WWI. We can't afford to leave a vacuum in Iraq no matter what.

@RL357MAG: You've got to remember that it wasn't Boris' countrymen that where murdered by the most violent religion in the world on 9/11. He's not going to have the passion we have.
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Old 05-23-2008, 08:55 PM   #37
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Respectfully, that is revisionist crap.


The Oil-for-Food scandal is propaganda? It's a lie? Do you want to supply any evidence to that claim?
I'm afraid Boris can no longer supply documentation to back up this claim than he can sway anyone's opinion on this forum that resides in the US, has served in the , military, or has family serving, that this country is morally corrupt or in anyway promotes "terrorism" overseas. Especially not on the weekend approaching Memorial Day. My father fought to liberate these Eurpoean "allies" of ours, and this type of rhetorical bull**** is how they thank America for all it's money, sacrifice, and support. I say let Europe rot and fall further into the cesspool of indifference and "globalization" that they so well deserve. Let them call upon themselves to fight the coming political and socio-economic wars with Russia, China, and the Middle Eastern countries. I personally would not lift a finger to help any of them!
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Old 05-23-2008, 09:19 PM   #38
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[QUOTE=Boris;25138]You definately need to get out a little more, act a little grown up, and see the big picture. Your country is not the only one getting it in the neck here, we are loosing people too.

For sure Great Britain is our ONLY ally on this front - you on the other hand more closely resemble the far left element in this country that would sell us out to the nearest UN dollar store.

Anyone who advocates torture is ignorant, and sacrifices the moral high ground (one for you here Jables), there is little of valued intelligence to be gained, and it's no good complaining in the unfortunate event the other side take your people and commit atrocities against them.

We don't have to worry about the "other side" - they don't torture - they behead!

It's not for you, me or anyone else to assume guilt, if they have committed crimes put them before a court, and lets see the evidence. The rant about torturing people is that of 13 year old!

Most "war criminals" are not prosecuted until the after the war has been prosecuted. Check your history books - look under :Nuremburg"


The trouble with you is that your view is that it's one law for you, and another for every other bugger. I really didn't want to get personal these are only my views, and the last time I checked I was still living in a free country.

"Still" being the operative word. I don't know where you get off telling me I am opposed to "innocent before proven guilty". I never made that statement. But I am going to state that EVERYONE at Guantanamo is there for a reason - and that reason is "capture" - if THAT'S not a form of "guilt" than I must not be looking at it the same as you blokes do.

Oh yes, while we are on the subject I don't know whether you have noticed but the US is surrounded my water, now assuming you have had more than a 12 grade education, you will also be aware that providing a Muslim has enough pairs of shoes he would be able to walk from a Muslim country into Europe (I know this because we did it in the 12th. century on the 1st. Crusade), that's why we are in the front line, and since I doubt you have ever been here I can't see how your in a position to comment.

You can doubt all you want, but as you've demonstrated again and again - you're wrong! I am of European descent. My grandparents got off the boat at Ellis Island and learned the language quicklyand became US citizens. They were from Italy. My grandfather became a well known artist at the turn of the 20th centruy and studied at the Academy of Arts with Norman Rockwell. For fun he painted portraits of Caruso and other opera singers and musicians of that era. He went on to paint a 30 x 40' mural on the ceiling of Regina Pacis church in Brooklyn, which was commisioned and dedicated because of the end of WWII. He gave birth to my father who fought in the Battle of the Bulge to liberate Europe from Nazi oppression. He married my mother whom he met while in Laon France. When he was discharged he went to school on the GI bill and became an engineer. He had his Masters before he was 29 and his Doctorate at age 38. He held 65 US patents and was awarded NASA's Lifetime Achievement Award in 1999 for 40 years of work in the AeroSpace Industry including the Space Shuttle. He developed an artificial heart in 1971 and received a patent for it after working with Dr's DeBakey and Cooley - the pioneers of open heart surgery. He invented a device to map the curvature of the cornea for pre-op corneal transplantation. I have been to Europe several times, especially France, to see my mother's relatives. My dad always left them with several thousands of dollars ( even though his salary was relatively meager, and even though her family had that "air of cultured indifference" like many Europeans) because he felt bad for them due to the bad economy, and the fact that they didn't even have indoor plumbing until 1966. Every time my dad took my mother to France, he was treated with disdain and outright hatred. The last time the taxi driver took off with all their belongings in the trunk when he dropped them off at Orlie Airport - and the Police made NO effort to help. He fought for, and watched his buddies die in that stinking country. They have never paid back their $69 Billion war debt. and they did not hide their hatred for us when they denied us access to their airspace during the first Gulf War. I give my father credit though, because when that happened he got right on the phone to my mothers relatives and spent a few minutes telling them what he thought of the French! I think at 77 yrs. old he finally had enough of the French. The French suck, the Germans suck, and anyone who despises the U.S. and still owes us a war debt sucks..


But I will be travelling with my wife to dine at a great Chinese in Rennes tomorrow, and guess what, although it's the capital city of Brittany region I will not feel the need to carry a gun, but I will be well armed with a pair of chop sticks.................
"This begs the question - Why are you here?"


I do like the red quote thing..how do you do that?.... American Ingenuity - you wouldn't understand
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Old 05-23-2008, 09:44 PM   #39
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I would agree, it does tick me off that less than 100 yrs ago Europe needed us to bail them out and now they want to talk about how big of bastards we are. You'd be speaking Germany if it wasn't for the USA. Here's the argument, Hitler wasn't attacking the United State, so according to your logic, Boris, we should have let him anilelate all of Europe. Do you agree, Boris? If you don't then don't even when it comes to Iraq.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:03 PM   #40
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I hope he doesn't confront a marrauding band of anti- Chinese-food-Islamo-terrorists when he goes out to dinner with no firearm....
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