55 men - Page 3
You are Unregistered, please register to use all of the features of FirearmsTalk.com!    
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Discussion Forums > The Club House > 55 men

View Poll Results: Would our Founding Fathers revolt against our current government?
Yes 35 85.37%
No 6 14.63%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-23-2008, 01:14 AM   #21
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
RL357Mag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Albany,New York
Posts: 3,251
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris View Post
I just know I will get it in the neck...................I have never heard of such a load of clap trap in a while, well not since Prime Minister's Question Time actually......You all rattle on about the presevation of the Constitution, civil rights and the fight for democracy, and in the next breath if the democratic system passes laws that don't suit you, or you do not personally agree with the concensus of the American people, you advocate an armed uprising to overthrow the democratic elected goverment. What then? impose your values on the majority of your countrymen through the barrel of a gun.....mmmmm, and you are suprised when the majority of your countrymen raise concerns on unregulated firearms ownership?

Gentlemen your firearm rights under the Constitution can only be defended through reasoned arguement not through threads threatening armed insurrection against your own democatic elected goverment, it's childish, will not happen and utterly counter productive....................
First of all Boris the "Democratic System" as you refer to it does not reflect the majority will, and therefore is no longer a Democratic system. The representatives have taken it upon themselves to pass laws that are not "by" or "for" the majority of people. To be sure, our "representatives" do not represent us, and our judges do not use the constituion as the litmus test of jurisprudence. We have become more like your government ( I am assuming you are a Brit) with respect to being "ruled" instead of being "represented". No one whom I have spoken with has voted for burdensome taxes, pork barrel spending, excessive social welfare spending, gay marriage recognition, abortion "rights", unrestricted and unlawful immigration, removal of God from every aspect of society, repressive gun laws, etc. etc.. Unlike Canada, Australia, and the UK, we can still own guns in America, and our Constitution states that our citizenry has the right to keep our government "in check" by bearing those arms if necessary. That was the primary reason for the inclusion of the 2nd Amendment. Unfortunately, our government has grown too powerful and too repressive, and unless this is checked, it's "citizens" will become it's "subjects".

And as far as using "reasoned argument" as you stated, to guarantee our 2nd Amendment Rights, isn't that what the good citizens of Australia tried in 1998 when their guns were confiscated and destroyed? Sounds very similar to what Obama suggests we do with Iran....just carry on a dialogue - they'll see the light!
__________________
Guns Have Only Two Enemies-Rust and Politicians
"The United States Constitution (c) 1791 - All Rights Reserved"
If Guns Kill, Do Pencils Mis-spell Words?
Pain is Weakness Leaving the Body - USMC
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"

Last edited by RL357Mag; 05-23-2008 at 01:53 AM.
RL357Mag is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2008, 01:42 AM   #22
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
RL357Mag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Albany,New York
Posts: 3,251
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris View Post
People are no more immoral than they where in the 16th. century, it's just that we have TV and the Internet, and to blame it on declining moral values is cobbers! The US is a fine country, and there is nothing wrong with the people, but it is my opinion, and only my opinion (because I know it's not shared by most of you), the social care, which one would expect from a modern Western civilized nation seem to be wanting.......(bkt and I have had this out before, and we agree to disagree), I think there is great social injustice at all levels, some have been spoken about on this forum, unfortunately anyone seemingly who raises the subject is labled a commie, or so******t and real issues within this fine country of yours will never be addressed.

You don't see declining moral values???
The Social agenda in this country ( read So******m) has been its' downfall for almost 50 years. When we started "feeling your pain" we changed the focus from self-responsibility to Social responsibility. That has created a "me" mentality and the Robin-hood syndrome. We, the hardworking poor-class (there is no middle class anymore) support the despots in our society who thrive off of the labors of the working class. Social welfare sounds nice and would be functional in a perfect world, but this is not a perfect world and it has not liberated anyone from the welfare rolls![/COLOR]Once the revered Constitution as been suspended, as with the detainees in Quantanmo Bay then it's fair game and your on the sippery slope. Now, before anyone starts shouting and bawling about the terrorist scumbags, or whatever other colourful names you want to call them, they have never been charged with any offence, tried or convicted. Some are totally innocent and still remain in custody. The current administration for their own ends have manipulated the Constitution and lied to the people over the invasion of Iraq (thanks to Tony Blair the British public where similarly decieved), their manipulation of the press is such that there are still people that believe that Saddam had a hand in 9/11, although a despot, he was their despot and Osama and his crew hated him. They had no presence in Iraq at the time of the invasion, he was considered (rightly you might say) a bad Muslim by the funamentalists.

The "Revered" constitution? Is that a bit of condescension I detect?

When you see a bunch of people who have been kidnapped
and placed into a no man's land, with bags over their heads, tortured and had all civil rights removed, some have been there for over 5 years, think long and hard, if they can do it to them why not you.

Kidnapped?? Get real pal...
If this is what you believe then why would you suggest "reasoned argument" with a government which in your eye's is clearly oppressive and dictatorial??

Several of the detainess who were released were later re-captured or killed on the battlefields in Afghanistan and Iraq! I do not believe that there is ANYONE at Guantanamo that has not earned his place there! Additionally, those detainees are being treated more like tourists than enemy combatants, unlike the treatment of U.S. captives and Journalists by the Muslims militants[/COLOR]
Remember also some of those people are there because the Pakistani Secret Police sold them for about $3000 as 'probable' combatants. No evidence, no trial, no Constitution........

Show some documentation to back up that claim! That sounds like more United Nations So-******-t propaganda to me...
Well that's my 2 cents, it's the way of things and the way things are going either you or I are likely to change things, merely live with the consequences...........

Say what you want about Bush's reasons for the Iraq war, at least he stepped up to the plate (with Tony Blair) and took action when this country was attacked. At the time he was acting on information from other sources concerning WMD's. And anyone that doesn't believe that Saddam had "weapons of mass destruction" has obviously had their eye's shut for many years when Saddam was gassing hundreds of thousands of his own people! Do you really think he used up everything he had in his stockpiles, or maybe they were moved into Pakistan or Iran???
__________________
Guns Have Only Two Enemies-Rust and Politicians
"The United States Constitution (c) 1791 - All Rights Reserved"
If Guns Kill, Do Pencils Mis-spell Words?
Pain is Weakness Leaving the Body - USMC
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"

Last edited by RL357Mag; 05-23-2008 at 02:05 AM.
RL357Mag is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2008, 05:19 AM   #23
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Jables's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 419
Default

Boris, I'm just curious what country you are in? Presidential politics are not what I'm talking about when I ask if our Founding Fathers would revolt.
__________________
I'm a Right-Wing, Anti-Illegal, Pro-Life, Gun Owning, Straight, White, Politically Informed, Conservative, Christian Male.

Liberals And Moderates Hate Me!!

Just remember, Hitler gave great speeches too.
Jables is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2008, 06:36 AM   #24
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 441
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RL357Mag View Post
Say what you want about Bush's reasons for the Iraq war, at least he stepped up to the plate (with Tony Blair) and took action when this country was attacked. At the time he was acting on information from other sources concerning WMD's. And anyone that doesn't believe that Saddam had "weapons of mass destruction" has obviously had their eye's shut for many years when Saddam was gassing hundreds of thousands of his own people! Do you really think he used up everything he had in his stockpiles, or maybe they were moved into Pakistan or Iran???
If the facts are unpalatable, I am sorry but the fact was that every knowledgeable diplomat or military source at prior to the invasion advised that to invade Iraq was a mistake, and would destablise the region, and would be counter productve to the war against Muslim extremists......and I think you ought to get your head around the fact that IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE UNITED STATES! The regime HAD chemical weapons, but everyone knew, including the Western intelligence agencies that at the time of the invasion they didn't have the capability with was give for the invasion.

We will live with the consequences of this decision for many years, all of us. You are clearly a patriot and I do not in any way wish to attack you or your, country or people, but the facts concerning the detainees is true, not withstanding that some of them derserve everything they get. But some of those detained have had no, or until only recently only limited access to legal representation, and have been brought there through rendition flights having been kidnapped my foreign Intelligence services...fact. If you can't see the wrong in it then I am sorry for you, two wrongs don't make a right. If you are to say you stand for justice, human rights and the rule of law then the way this administration is going about it is not reflected in their deeds when dealing with suspected terrorists, note the word 'suspected'.

When reasoned arguement runs out you have resorted to the ultra right wing stance that it's a UN plot, or propoganda...utter tripe.

Jabel: Brit living and working from Western France..............
Boris is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2008, 12:45 PM   #25
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
RL357Mag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Albany,New York
Posts: 3,251
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robocop10mm View Post
The majority rules. That is the basis of our Republic. Unfortunately, The majority do not vote so we are ruled by the majority of the voters. .

I agree with everything you said except this...the very problem is that the majority doesn't vote, and as a result we are being ruled by a MINORITY who is imposing their ideas and mandates on the majority. The "squeeky wheels are getting the grease" - we're getting F%$# and there's no grease being used !
__________________
Guns Have Only Two Enemies-Rust and Politicians
"The United States Constitution (c) 1791 - All Rights Reserved"
If Guns Kill, Do Pencils Mis-spell Words?
Pain is Weakness Leaving the Body - USMC
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
RL357Mag is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2008, 01:17 PM   #26
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
RL357Mag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Albany,New York
Posts: 3,251
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris View Post
If the facts are unpalatable, I am sorry but the fact was that every knowledgeable diplomat or military source at prior to the invasion advised that to invade Iraq was a mistake, and would destablise the region, and would be counter productve to the war against Muslim extremists......and I think you ought to get your head around the fact that IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE UNITED STATES! The regime HAD chemical weapons, but everyone knew, including the Western intelligence agencies that at the time of the invasion they didn't have the capability with was give for the invasion.

The intelligence available at the time, true or not, indicated that Hussein had WMD's. This assertion was also made by upstanding Liberals in our government who were given the same information, including Hillary Clinton and other notables. The long history of Hussein thumbing his nose at the sanctions and UN resolutions (an organisation which should be disbanded or at least sent packing from our shores IMO) became unpalatable. If you remember, IRAQ was supposed to comply with UN inspections to determine their weapons status - they blatantly refused and delayed MANY times. Now maybe the waffling and hollow threats made by the UN were acceptable to some people, but they weren't to the Bush AND Clinton administrations. AS far as war destabilizing the region - well duh...doesn't war by definition "destabilize"?? I don't want to replay the reasons why we are there, I don't like it either, my son goes there in July. But I see no sense in packing up and going home after the tremendous expenditure in resources and lives. Anyone that sets a timetable for withdrawl is a fool, plain and simple. If I was the parent or relative of someone who lost their life in Iraq I would be livid at the suggestion to "turn-tale" and run, only to have to go back and finish the job later.
We will live with the consequences of this decision for many years, all of us. You are clearly a patriot and I do not in any way wish to attack you or your, country or people, but the facts concerning the detainees is true, not withstanding that some of them derserve everything they get. But some of those detained have had no, or until only recently only limited access to legal representation, and have been brought there through rendition flights having been kidnapped my foreign Intelligence services...fact. If you can't see the wrong in it then I am sorry for you, two wrongs don't make a right. If you are to say you stand for justice, human rights and the rule of law then the way this administration is going about it is not reflected in their deeds when dealing with suspected terrorists, note the word 'suspected'.

When reasoned arguement runs out you have resorted to the ultra right wing stance that it's a UN plot, or propoganda...utter tripe.

As a Brit, you attempt to apply "civility" and "dialogue" to every problem - that doesn't work with terrorists. We are one of the most "compassionate" countries in the world. Our reasons, methods and willingness to help are and have always been above reproach - do we make mistakes in implementation - absolutely, but to our detriment, and at the expense of being despised and hated by those very people that we have assisted, defended, and fought to liberate, we continue to take the lead in countering evil wherever it pops up. I for one don't agree with this "global policing" and wish we would adopt a more isloationist policy. Let the world (and the UN) fix their own problems with their own money and their own personnel. The rest of the world clearly despises the US - so what are we doing dumping billions of our citizens dollars into THEIR economies? I say shut the borders and send aid to the residents of the states in this country that have no food. This debacle in Myanmar is a perfect example. If they don't want our aid, we can certainly use it here!The UN is a rogue organisation which accomplishes NOTHING on it's own and without US dollars, food, and effort. They are currently busy spending our money investigating racial tension in THIS country as part of a three week fact-finding tour! As though this is a problem that needs their attention, and we need their input and reccomendations into our social issues? I say kick them the hell outr of this country. Who the hell do these elitist idiots think they are?
On an annual basis they try to impose their ideas on global gun-banning on us. If we get another Liberal So-cia-ist in office I have no doubt that someday this country will be conforming to the UN's "New World Order" mentality.

Jabel: Brit living and working from Western France..............
Maybe we should send the Guantanamo "detainee's to France where they can feel at home with the rest of their "peaceable bretheren". That humanitarian effort has worked rather well for France, Germany, the UK, and Sweden - don't you think?
__________________
Guns Have Only Two Enemies-Rust and Politicians
"The United States Constitution (c) 1791 - All Rights Reserved"
If Guns Kill, Do Pencils Mis-spell Words?
Pain is Weakness Leaving the Body - USMC
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"

Last edited by RL357Mag; 05-23-2008 at 01:35 PM.
RL357Mag is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2008, 02:03 PM   #27
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 441
Default

When did I ever suggest that forces be withdrwn from Iraq? I didn't. All politicians where simply lied to, along with the general public, and apparantly even now the appears to be individuals who can not accept it. I think the invasion had more to do with waving a big stick after 9/11, and of course oil. It went pearshaped because diplomats and military commanders who had a depth of knowledge where no listened too. Now we have to stay and try and put it right..... War is a waste of life and this was a military disaster on a grand scale and has had repercussions greater than they ever imagined. But we are in it and have to try and repair some of the damage. The greatest loss of life is among the Iraqi people, who just can't win.........

You are being hypocritical, you spout about doing the liberties, freedom of speech but when faced with a simple premise of justice for all you can't get your head around it.....and I find you jibe about sending the detainees to Europe a little insulting to be frank.

We in Europe are at the front line of urban terrorism and have been for sometime, and not just from Muslim extremists. You should have been around in the 1970/80's when US funded Irish terrorists where blowing up maiming and murdering people throughout the UK, I was there mate, and now I spend my time operating bomb detection dogs on offensive and defensive operational searches for Muslim extremist groups. Before you criticise the attitude over here I suggest you visit and see for yourself...... and before you make some smart comment I have lived for a while in the States.....

But not withstanding I believe in the ultimate rule of law, if these people are guilty of anything give them their day in court, I don't know about you but that's what a lot of us are fighting for, as opposed to locking them up in a concentration camp!

As for your comments on the UN, well I have heard this clap trap rhetoric before, just not worth commenting on........

Last edited by Boris; 05-23-2008 at 02:05 PM.
Boris is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2008, 02:09 PM   #28
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 109
Default

boris, thank you for remaining on target.....once again i find you have articulated my opinion.

movie zombie
moviezombie is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2008, 03:23 PM   #29
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Jables's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 419
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris View Post
What then? impose your values on the majority of your countrymen through the barrel of a gun.....mmmmm, and you are suprised when the majority of your countrymen raise concerns on unregulated firearms ownership?
Quote:
A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.

Samuel Adams
I think the Founding Fathers grasped the concept that if we don't protect the virtue and morals of the country, I will fall and fast.

@RL357MAG: You are correct that the minority is way more politically active than the majority, which is slowly making us the minority. A group called American Solutions did a survey among ALL Americans. All races, all political views, all religions. The "value voters" are still the majority. Our job is to get our neighbors and other church goers out to vote.

http://www.americansolutions.com/

@Boris: Morality is the only thing you can legislate. I know you will disagree with that statement so I'll wait to explain why I say that until my next post.

@All: Thank you for being so passionate about this thread, this has been one of those questions I like to ponder during idle car rides, etc... My next one will be just as big of a hot topic.
__________________
I'm a Right-Wing, Anti-Illegal, Pro-Life, Gun Owning, Straight, White, Politically Informed, Conservative, Christian Male.

Liberals And Moderates Hate Me!!

Just remember, Hitler gave great speeches too.
Jables is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2008, 04:42 PM   #30
bkt
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 6,973
Liked 1305 Times on 664 Posts
Likes Given: 151

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris View Post
If the facts are unpalatable, I am sorry but the fact was that every knowledgeable diplomat or military source at prior to the invasion advised that to invade Iraq was a mistake, and would destablise the region, and would be counter productve to the war against Muslim extremists......and I think you ought to get your head around the fact that IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE UNITED STATES! The regime HAD chemical weapons, but everyone knew, including the Western intelligence agencies that at the time of the invasion they didn't have the capability with was give for the invasion.
Respectfully, that is revisionist crap.

Iraq most certainly did have WMD at the time coalition forces invaded. Please consult Richard Miniter's book Disinformation. The concern was not that Iraq would invade the U.S. directly. Rather, it was known that Hussein hated the U.S., had tried to assassinate Bush 41, and openly sponsored terrorism through training and funding. Bush and Powell tried for 14 months to appeal to the U.N. to put teeth in the 17 resolutions Iraq had ignored. It was only after the invasion that it became clear that France, Germany, Russia and China were complicit with the U.N. in breaking the U.N.'s own resolutions as well as international law and working under the table with Iraq: cheap oil certificates in exchange for banned or "dual-use" components.

Unpalatable facts, indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris View Post
We will live with the consequences of this decision for many years, all of us. You are clearly a patriot and I do not in any way wish to attack you or your, country or people, but the facts concerning the detainees is true, not withstanding that some of them derserve everything they get. But some of those detained have had no, or until only recently only limited access to legal representation, and have been brought there through rendition flights having been kidnapped my foreign Intelligence services...fact.
Fact: 100% of those in custody in Cuba are there because they were actively fighting against coalition forces. My heart does not go out to these people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris View Post
If you can't see the wrong in it then I am sorry for you, two wrongs don't make a right. If you are to say you stand for justice, human rights and the rule of law then the way this administration is going about it is not reflected in their deeds when dealing with suspected terrorists, note the word 'suspected'.
The prosecution of the war has not been optimal. We have been far, far too lenient and have not shown strength, which is needed, particularly in that corner of the world, in order to garner respect. That much I'll give you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris View Post
When reasoned arguement runs out you have resorted to the ultra right wing stance that it's a UN plot, or propoganda...utter tripe.
The Oil-for-Food scandal is propaganda? It's a lie? Do you want to supply any evidence to that claim?

Last edited by bkt; 05-23-2008 at 04:44 PM.
bkt is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes




Newest Threads