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Old 05-08-2012, 05:34 AM   #41
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I agree that the whole country lost something in the "civil war", the strength of the individual states.

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Sherman proved to them that was not a good idea.
Nah, much like the winner of a limbo contest, he just proved he could stoop lower to accomplish his purposes. Much like a rapist, he got his rocks off, but it wasn't much to brag about amongst real men of substance.
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:08 AM   #42
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Orangejello, why is Sherman so bad and Andy Jackson blameless. Jackson made war on the Cherokee people to take their land for Southern power brokers. Many thousands would die mostly women and children from starvation and disease and cold. There was nothing during the Civil War like the "Death March" across the south by these people. Nothing in American history compares to the Trail of Tears. They were forced from their native lands to live in a very poor land far to the west. Their lands were converted to cotton fields by rich land owners. My own Grt. Gf. of that era was Capt. Jonas Loughmiller of the East Tenn. Militia. under Gen. Jackson. You can Google him. He helped in the Indian conquest.

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Old 05-08-2012, 06:23 AM   #43
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Orangejello, why is Sherman so bad and Andy Jackson blameless.
I'm not sure what must have happened to Sherman to make him such a spineless scumbag that he made war on women and children, perhaps childhood abuse? As for Jackson, I don't remember tooting anybody's horn?

I have heard about the "trail of tears", pretty cold-blooded from what i've read. Sounds like another group of people who got on the wrong side of American "progress". I remember a story about some farmer who offered the passing people his unpicked turnip field thinking they would cook them, but they just pulled them up and munched down.
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:43 AM   #44
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The turnup story. My point is the killing and raping of women and children started long before the Civil War. Sherman did not have "Death Marches" relocating people in Ga. 1,000 of miles to the west. The Navajo people were relocated by Kit Carson. To this day stories about Carson are used to scare Navajo children. Is this war, is this progress?

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Old 05-08-2012, 06:44 AM   #45
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War is hell.

Sherman said it.

And Sherman proved it.

After the North finally mobilized, and Grant took over, with his good friend Sherman, the South no longer stood a chance.

The South should have surrended earlier, after they lost Gettysburg.

They chose to hang on.

Sherman proved to them that was not a good idea.
Anyone who purposely harms civilian like that is the lowest form of scum. Women and children do not pose a serious threat, yet he still took/burned all of their supplies. He is no hero, he is scum, and one for the biggest disgraces in American history.
As far as I am concerned, Sherman is no better than Hitler. The only difference is that Sherman didn't force all of them into death camps, he killed them another way.

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The Civil War was about Human Servitude the buying and selling of Humans.
I have to disagree with you some on this. Slavery was a major issue, but it wasn't the main cause of the war. The North treated the South very poorly during this time period. We eventually got fed up with the feds, and gave them a major middle finger.

After many of the states succeeded, tensions were high. Lincoln's trying to preserve the Union did to help smooth thing over. Eventually, something snapped, and one of the most costly wars in history began.

Lincoln was not the great emancipator everyone thinks he was either. He really didn't care about freeing the slaves. There is actually evidence now that shows he would be considered a racist today.

The reason he freed them was to make the Union look like the good guys, and the Confederacy look like the bad guys. He wanted support for his cause (to preserve the Union), so he made the Civil war into something it wasn't initially. A war for the freedom of slaves.

Think about it, only the rich had slaves, so only a small percentage of people in the South actually had slaves, and they weren't the ones fighting the war. It was the everyday, poor as dirt, Southerner who fought that war. Do you really think they would die by the thousands so a very small percentage of people could keep their slaves?

It would have actually been better for them if there were no slaves. The plantation owners would have to hire and pay people to do the work. The poor would have gladly taken that opportunity to make money.

No, they didn't fight to keep slavery, so what did they fight for? States' rights. They fought and died for their rights, which the North had oppressed before the war. That was the main cause of the Civil War.

lol, that was a long one. Sorry if I went all history buff on you. It just bothers me when people say the Civil War was all about slavery.
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:59 AM   #46
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Many through history did what we now call evil. Did they know what they were doing was wrong, or did they think it was done for the "greater good" at the time? What is happening now that will be viewed like this in the future?

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Old 05-08-2012, 07:04 AM   #47
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I had two greats that served in the Southern Army. One was a slave owner. The issue of slavary was the main issue form the time of Washington. There were side issues and reasons for some non slave holders to join the fight. My point is not to get into the reasons for the Civil War. My point is 46,000 Cherokee people were removed from 25 million acres of land in the South after 1830. Of that 15,000 were forced marched in the winter without food or clothes. Of that 15,000, 5,000 died from the cold and starvation and beatings and shootings of the weak and old. The women and children who could not keep up were buried along the trail. Gen Jackson is refered in the South. My point is Sherman never came close to the "Death Marches".

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Old 05-08-2012, 09:09 AM   #48
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Many through history did what we now call evil. Did they know what they were doing was wrong, or did they think it was done for the "greater good" at the time? What is happening now that will be viewed like this in the future?
I think in the future, tax cuts for the rich will be viewed as economic slavery.

As well as muslim polygamy, that will also be viewed in the future as the exploitation of gullible women.

In ancient times, from what we know of history, it was already common when history (defined as wall carvings in stone, long before Herodotus' book) speaks to us that the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, Etruscans, and Chinese (the Shang Dynasty) were already practicing slavery.

In those days their religions were local and their gods were usually related to their kings somehow. So whatever the king wanted to do was considered by the gullible and brainwashed peoples god-like.

Even Judaism and early Christianity did nothing to end the blight of slavery but just kept it entrenched.

The concept of modern civil rights is relatively new in the past 100 years.

It evolves from a new modern philosophy of enlightened international relations. In the past few decades Western leaders (mostly Americans) have conceived the notion that any nation must first treat its own residents civilly in order to be worthy of trust by other nations. It's a new way of thinking.
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:14 AM   #49
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I'm not sure what must have happened to Sherman to make him such a spineless scumbag that he made war on women and children, perhaps childhood abuse? As for Jackson, I don't remember tooting anybody's horn?

I have heard about the "trail of tears", pretty cold-blooded from what i've read. Sounds like another group of people who got on the wrong side of American "progress". I remember a story about some farmer who offered the passing people his unpicked turnip field thinking they would cook them, but they just pulled them up and munched down.
Sherman was a military genius. Same as Grant, who was also a military genius. As were Lee and Longstreet.

Sherman simply had less reservations (scruples) about hurting the civilian South than Grant or Lincoln did.

If Lincoln wanted to end the war, he had to hurt the Southerners, all of them, civilians as well as soldiers.

Its what we do now in war as well. We did it in Viet Nam. We did it in Germany. We did it in Japan. And we cheer for it. We are no different than Sherman. He was just the genius who first thought of it in recent modern times.

Hitler and Churchill and Stalin did it too, before us. We just copied them. They were copying Napoleon of France and Alexander of Russia, who invented scorched earth in 1812. Although scorced earth was also utilized by the Spartans against the Athenians in the Peloponnesian Wars in the 400s BC as well.

Ergo the best and brightest military commanders throughout history have used scorched earth as a strategy, and Sherman was only one of many of them.
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:15 PM   #50
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Sherman was a military genius. . (snip) . . Sherman was only one of many of them.
This ^^.

Man has done untold horrors to others. Ostensibly and even initially, for some 'common good' or other, but it often devolves into just another consolidation of power over others. I don’t think there’s been an ‘ism that hasn’t been used by ‘true believers’ as a pretext to sacrifice others, often in the millions, for the sake of the purity of their ideology, which they just happen to be in charge of effecting. Sherman was just a 'Johnny Come Lately' in the ‘Ends justify the means’ contest. At least barbarians do it without pretext.
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