Winston Churchill fading into history - Page 2
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:27 AM   #11
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Time for a little consiousness raising
Not a fan of the Man:

This doesnt fit with the cozy idealized history we get taught but its more accurate.:

-As a young man he helped set up concentration camps for the families of the brave Boers .

- Sacrificed his country to fulfill his lifelong ambition to destroy his brother people the Germans (for example long before Hitler took over he wrote books about how britain should bomb german civilains; was lobbying for war prior to WW1 AND 2 etc).

- Responsible for a campaign of aerial genocide.

- Likely had personal knowledge of the atrocities his friend Dr Benes planned and executed on his minorities after the war (Before Benes got back and after capitulation BBC Czech lanague asked the population to decorate the avenues with Germans as living torches and they did etc etc)

His entire life he had been lobbying for war in Europe .
WW2 was his lifelong ambition come true.

The destruction of the British Emipre due to the war was predictable but he obviosuly didnt care because it allowed him to become a "historical figure"

He even lobbied the Soviet Union as an ally which had just gotten done murdering 6 million ukrianians and millions of others. a soviet Unions whose crimes would dwarf the Holocaust or anything the axis ever did.

No matter what the historical cheerleaders say; there was no need for WW2 which he co-engineered, if it hadnt happend Europe would be healthier and stronger and would still have a future.

Maybe he wasnt the <most> evil man in charge in Europe but after Stalin and Hitler he was a close third.



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Old 03-11-2013, 12:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluez View Post
Not a fan of the Man:

- Helped set up concentration camps for the Boers during the Boer wars.
- Sacrificed his country to fulfill his lifelong ambition to destroy his brother people the Germans (for example long before Hitler took over he wrote books about how britain should bomb german civilains; even prior to WW1 AND 2 he was lobbying for war etc).
- Responsible for a campaign of aerial genocide.
- Likely had personal knowledge of the atrocities his friend Dr Benes planned and executed on his minorities after the war (Before Benes got back and after capitulation BBC Czech lanague asked the population to decortae the avenues with Germans as living torches and they did)

His entire life he had been lobbying for war in Europe . WW2 was his lifelong ambition come true.
When he was successful he sacrificed the British Empire to satisfy his self aggarndization.
He lobbied the Soviet Union as an ally which had just gotten done murdering 6 million ukrianians.

No matter what the historical cheerleaders say; there was no need for WW2, if it hadnt happend Eruope would be healthier and stronger and would still have a future.
Europe is dying and he is one of the men responsbile.
Wow !!!!!!


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Old 03-11-2013, 01:44 AM   #13
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blueZ-
I won't dignify what you said with a point by point rebuttal . Absolutely untrue . Enough said .

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Old 03-11-2013, 01:56 AM   #14
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Sorry to hijack the hagiography thread.

Maybe I put it on a little thick ...(though all of it can be checked) .....but I think the point to remember is that many of those we "know" from history as heroes are sometimes villains or more often regular men acting and reacting to thier environment.

As some we were taught are villains may have been heroes.

What do you think will happen to the presidents legacy if he is successful with his "change"?

In 60 years there will be people on forums talking about how he was the greatest president ever.

Society has a tendence to glorify whoever won no matter what

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Old 03-11-2013, 02:01 AM   #15
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Churchill was a great leader!
Wish we had one!

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Old 03-11-2013, 03:26 AM   #16
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I slogged through all six volumes of his huge history of WWII years ago. His History Of The English-Speaking Peoples was much easier going and more readable than the endless exchanges of cables with Roosevelt, but the WWII work was worth the effort.

He was also a pretty good landscape painter--Eisenhower painted fairly well too--a self-taught and not very good bricklayer, and a famous wit.

The Aussies tend to think harshly of him, since it was his brilliant plan that sent huge numbers of Australian troops to slaughter at Gallipoli in 1915 when he was First Lord of the Admiralty. But it's likely true that he did more than anyone else to bring Britain through WWII. He damn sure deserved better than the unceremonious way he was dumped when the war ended.

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Old 03-11-2013, 03:38 AM   #17
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blueZ : I've listened to Professor Fears' entire audio lecture series on Churchill . I've read books such as Intrepid by Stevenson , The Wizard War by R.V. Jones , The Double-Cross System In WWII by Masterman, The Ultra Secret by Fred Winterbotham, Beyond Top Secret Ultra by Ewen Montagu and many others that had something to do with Churchill . I've watched Cities At War, The World At War and many other documentaries and series presentations with relevance to these matters .
In short, if you say we can check it out, I have checked it out .
I stand by what I said. Your allegations are false .

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Old 03-11-2013, 03:47 AM   #18
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Gallipoli was Churchill's idea but was approved and ordered by others and was not his responsibility . I recall that errors by commanders on the scene contributed to the debacle .
Side note : Churchill wanted to make another try at running the dardenelles but the navy didn't want to lose any more ships. Churchill later noted that these old ships were to be scrapped in a few years anyway and he felt they should have risked them

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Old 03-11-2013, 04:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shouldazagged View Post
I slogged through all six volumes of his huge history of WWII years ago. His History Of The English-Speaking Peoples was much easier going and more readable than the endless exchanges of cables with Roosevelt, but the WWII work was worth the effort.

He was also a pretty good landscape painter--Eisenhower painted fairly well too--a self-taught and not very good bricklayer, and a famous wit.

The Aussies tend to think harshly of him, since it was his brilliant plan that sent huge numbers of Australian troops to slaughter at Gallipoli in 1915 when he was First Lord of the Admiralty. But it's likely true that he did more than anyone else to bring Britain through WWII. He damn sure deserved better than the unceremonious way he was dumped when the war ended.
Churchill was never viewed as a great peace time leader the war came about at an opportune time for him so he could display his true strengths
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:42 PM   #20
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One fact remains true of all wars, and will FOREVER remain so:

HISTORY BOOKS ARE ALWAYS WRITTEN BY THE WINNING SIDE



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