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Old 09-19-2012, 01:41 AM   #11
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I think chainfire is right in the degree we experience. It's really just a degree. We don't live in a democracy, but there are democratic elements. I think these elements too have grown too large and disruptive for our constitutional republic. Just not to the degree of socialism, with people thinking that they have the right to healthcare, or that it's appropriate send billion/trillions of dollars oversea to "help" other nations, or that the government is responsible or even has the ability to create jobs just by willing them...

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Old 09-19-2012, 01:53 AM   #12
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:30 PM   #13
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During my youth and young manhood, the middle class got a substantial part of the wealth by working for it. Now most of wealth is created by and for investors, speculators and bankers, and corporate raiders, who do not produce goods or services. It has been a redistribution of wealth from the workers to the shysters.
Bingo: The middle class no longer matters to the political pukes who run this country in the name of the international movers and shakers whose pockets they are in.

Traditionally the US stock market tanks when the economy tanks. Now the stock market is going great guns while the economy sucks. Its an artificial thing: The stock market is greatly over-valued. One day the stock market will suddenly go boobs up: The stockholders, bankers and corporate panjandrums will whine for another federal bailout.


Wages for middle class working folks are are now at the 1989 level.

http://www.myfoxal.com/story/19535178/us-incomes-fall-to-1989-levels-how-did-that-happen

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A family right in the middle of the income spectrum had an income of $50,054, which is actually lower than the 1989 median level of $50,624 expressed in 2011 dollars. The implication: For much of America the economy has produced not just one lost decade but two. Stagnation has even hit wealthier and more educated households (the 95th percentile in the Census data) for the past decade.

Give this sorry economy a couple more years and US working wages will be at the 1979 level.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:37 PM   #14
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Maybe a bit off topic, but i was wondering the other day how much the level of acceptable socialism in this country has been increased by the influx of immigrants from more socialist states, like mexico.


As a youth, i did NOT things like ever-circling bombers and nuke-laden subs comforting.

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Old 09-26-2012, 10:29 PM   #15
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I lived near Griffiss AFB all of my youth, The Heavy bombers flew over our area every day but I never had any real fear until I was stationed in Germany. Looking over the Hoff Border at Checks that were ready to kill anything that moved. I realized later that they werent there to keep us out, they were there to keep the citizens in. That made me more angry than scared.

The day the walls started tumbling down in Berlin, I was nearly as happy as the Berliners! Peace at last but it only lasted a short while and were back where we started with many fronts now not just the USSR.

Grouping like tasks and Socialism seem allot alike but not so much so really. Provide for The Common Defense refers to our semi contiguous borders that kept growing until we owned a whole continent. That was a great idea, we had lots of NMEs and lots of border and a federal military worked better than just random state sponsored patrols. Its still the best approach today, thats not socialism, it just makes sense. Promoting the general welfare just meant creating a place where all citizens had the same rights to thrive. Tranquility meant living in an untroubled state, free from disturbance and molestation from our own Government. All of these phrases were specifically coined to empower the people and limit the government to very few specific tasks.

A government with 1000 laws on its books is too powerful and not tranquil.

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Old 09-26-2012, 11:05 PM   #16
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I lived near Griffiss AFB all of my youth, The Heavy bombers flew over our area every day but I never had any real fear until I was stationed in Germany. Looking over the Hoff Border at Checks that were ready to kill anything that moved. I realized later that they werent there to keep us out, they were there to keep the citizens in. That made me more angry than scared.

The day the walls started tumbling down in Berlin, I was nearly as happy as the Berliners! Peace at last but it only lasted a short while and were back where we started with many fronts now not just the USSR.

Grouping like tasks and Socialism seem allot alike but not so much so really. Provide for The Common Defense refers to our semi contiguous borders that kept growing until we owned a whole continent. That was a great idea, we had lots of NMEs and lots of border and a federal military worked better than just random state sponsored patrols. Its still the best approach today, thats not socialism, it just makes sense. Promoting the general welfare just meant creating a place where all citizens had the same rights to thrive. Tranquility meant living in an untroubled state, free from disturbance and molestation from our own Government. All of these phrases were specifically coined to empower the people and limit the government to very few specific tasks.

A government with 1000 laws on its books is too powerful and not tranquil.


How many laws would you accept and consider the government to be in-line with your philosophy? Are 10 sufficient, is 100 too many?

Western religious tradition gave us ten pretty decent ones. Most of the rest of the laws are to permit some to break some of the ten. How many bankers could live with "thou shall not steal?" Soliders and police could be in trouble on the "kill" thing. How many years would "coveting" get?

We live in a complicate world, it takes complicated laws to keep thing moving and keep lawyers in business.
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:08 PM   #17
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I'm not sure it is so much the number of laws as how fairly they are applied and whether those applying them also follow them. As far as 1000 laws, i'd bet there are more than that just for the federal income tax.

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Old 09-26-2012, 11:12 PM   #18
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I'm not sure it is so much the number of laws as how fairly they are applied and whether those applying them also follow them. As far as 1000 laws, i'd bet there are more than that just for the federal income tax.
The tax code is so complicated so that those who make the most money, have to pay the least taxes. We need a flat rate tax that everyone pays the same rate. Billionalre or ditch digger, Microsoft or Mamma's Famous Pizza.
Don't expect this to happen, fairness is not about to happen.
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:24 PM   #19
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The tax code is so complicated so that those who make the most money, have to pay the least taxes. We need a flat rate tax that everyone pays the same rate. Billionalre or ditch digger, Microsoft or Mamma's Famous Pizza.
Don't expect this to happen, fairness is not about to happen.
I won't argue the "fairness" of the tax code, but i would suggest you look into the "alternative minimum tax" that limits deductions and credits for higher income filers. It is a bit dated now.

Any "flat tax" would probably really hurt the paycheck-to-paycheck crowd pretty badly, since the lowest reasonable rate i have seen is about 19% ( a good bit higher than many lower income filers pay now).
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:50 PM   #20
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The Paycheck to Paycheck Crowd would have to limit their spending on BS and buy the things they need to live. They would not pay taxes if the only things taxed were not the needs in life. Its just that simple.

Yes, 1000 laws is too many, ignorance of the law is a perfect excuse when you gotta make a living and dont have time to sit home and read up on every one of them. Most laws are duplicitous, we already had legal methods to punish nearly every crime. IE, Texting is a distracted driver, why do you need a special law for texters when we already had one they could be punished for?

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