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Old 10-26-2012, 10:04 PM   #41
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Are we seriously writing this kids report?

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Old 10-26-2012, 10:21 PM   #42
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Are we seriously writing this kids report?
God help him if we do ... the school is likely to have him committed under the NDAA


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Old 10-27-2012, 04:58 AM   #43
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Well, kind of yes and kind of no. The Hague was rolled into one of the four evolutions of the Geneva Convention, which we did ratify, but only parts of it, which is kind of cool of us actually.



Currently we are recognized as part of the Hague Conference, which includes:


Argentina,Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, China, Croatia, Cyprus,Czech Republic, Denmark, Egypt, Estonia, Finland, Former Yugoslav Republic ofMacedonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan,Republic of Korea, Latvia, Luxembourg, Malta, Mexico, Monaco, Morocco,Netherlands, Norway, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia,Spain, Suriname, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, United Kingdom of Great Britainand Northern Ireland, United States of America, Uruguay and Venezuela.


Yes, but we choose what we follow and what we don't (as does most of the countries on that list), and when we don't. Take the Mk211 for example. And there are instances where the military will use Jacketed Hollow points.

By and large I believe that they are not issued to regular troops not because of any convention but because of cost. When you are expending several hundred million rounds a year the difference of ten cents a round is astronomical.
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Old 10-27-2012, 05:19 AM   #44
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It was some of the first attempts at a one World court. It was part of which became the Leaque of Nations AKA United Nations. It really had little to do with the treatment of soldiers. It allowed the Socialist and Communst to Hog Tie America in Vietnam.

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Old 10-28-2012, 08:16 PM   #45
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Take the Mk211 for example. And there are instances where the military will use Jacketed Hollow points.
The Mk211, Raufoss, round is an Anti-Material round. Anti-Material, which is agreed upon to NOT be used on solely human, fleshly targets.

Now should a soldier, accidently, fire a Raufoss round upon a flesh covered scumbag in the sandbox, killing him deader than hell, he was quite obviously firing at the Ak-47 and/or bandolier that said scumbag was holding/wearing.
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Old 10-28-2012, 08:50 PM   #46
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The Mk211, Raufoss, round is an Anti-Material round. Anti-Material, which is agreed upon to NOT be used on solely human, fleshly targets.

Now should a soldier, accidently, fire a Raufoss round upon a flesh covered scumbag in the sandbox, killing him deader than hell, he was quite obviously firing at the Ak-47 and/or bandolier that said scumbag was holding/wearing.
A man as educated in firearms such as yourself should know the official U.S. position on this round. The official position of the United States Government is that that particular round is authorized for use against any target.

Though there was a huge debate because of what the Red Cross was trying to do.

But it is all kinda moot. On an unarmored person it will only detonate inside the body about half of the time.

Personally I don't see how any round that is more effective than normal FMJ can be considered inhumane. If it is more lethal then it reduces the suffering of the person shot with it.
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:34 PM   #47
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First off the round was designed to penetrate light armored vehicles and it's always been classified as Anti-Material.

As stated above, the St. Petersburg Treaty outlawed it's use, against humans, as it was under 400 grams.

Petersburg was not signed by nearly as many countries, but later it was rolled into The Hague, twice, which was signed as indicated above.

It bears noting that the use of said round was "allowed" for machine gun purposes, not for sniper applications. Machine gun usage, which were by their very nature, "anti-material targets" on the battlefield.

You have to realize that when the idea of a single shot .50 caliber "sniper rifle" was intentionally for the grounding of light aircraft so they could not take off, engine blocks to keep vehicles from rolling, etc. Anti-Material targets.

Carlos himself never used a single shot bolt gun, he used a scope that was transferred from his bolt action to a tripod mounted M2 for the range.

Now, as to the round in question.

Using it against a flesh and bone target would result in a very small chance of the round being "in" the target long enough to "explode". The reports of the round hitting an unarmored opponent and blowing them to pieces in some sort of Hollywood-esque explosion are vastly over-reported.

Given the shear mass of the target, the speed of the round, and the defiance that bone would offer a "Tungston core, armor piercing round", it's hardly conceivable that round after round would just EXPLODE in a target.

Luckily I happen to know a guy who has done three tours in Afghanistan as a sniper out of Joint Base Ft. Lewis/McChord, as he is a customer out of the shop, nothing more, personally. But when he stops by, there is always talk of how things are going, how morale is, is there improvement, etc.

He, and his troops, do not always take the "Big Bitch" with them, but when they do, the "official" after-action report will show that both the trigger and the spotter have confirmed an "anti material" need for implementation, just in case.

By way of note, it's no mere coincidence that the Canadian Sniper Furlong, who held the longest kill at range for a short period of time, had an after-action report that read he engaged a target with "a clearly displayed RPK Machine Gun being moved into position". He was not shooting at an enemy soldier, but at a machine gun position. Riiiiggghhhhhttttt.

Coincidently, the guy who beat Furlong's record by about 50 meters is a chap out of Davyboy's realm, who shot two Taliban "war fighters" with a .338 Lapua - and his after action report states that it took 9 shots to range the targets, but his first "hit" was center mass and a kill shot.

Semantics, sure. But it bears noting that none of the Islamic countries have joined, or signed, any of the war treaties on the international books.

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Old 10-28-2012, 09:53 PM   #48
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What is interesting is that the same government that called for the courts that came up with the "machine gun" thing ended up making an exception in their own doctrine that allowed for it's use in sniper applications.

The recounting of Furlong's shot that I read was a bit different, though still included the fact that the BG was carrying an RPK.

The guy was mobile, first shot was WAG, second impacted his pack, whereas the third killed him.

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Old 10-28-2012, 10:31 PM   #49
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Ok thanks a lot, but what about using civilian weapons and scopes? Where does it talk about those or what does?
The use of civilian weapons is typically a no-no (for us, at least). That comes from our Command (typically Brigade or higher).

Even if there is nothing clearly stating the prohibition of civilian weapons/equipment, any use of non issued equipment can lead to the soldier's family not being able to collect his/her benefits should he/she die in combat.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:32 AM   #50
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If we go to war against a country that doesn't abide by the rules then we shouldn't have to either.

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