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Old 05-28-2013, 03:00 AM   #81
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So, we should get rid of the Lincoln Memorial, take him off of Mt. Rushmore, insist Americans stop thinking of him as one of the top three Presidents of all time and the rest of the world from reading about him too (he is the most written about man in history) and, finally, we shouldn't name a new line of doublewides after him?
No... I said that other cultures destroy effigies but did not say we should. The problem with destroying monuments is that the people who do it tend to forget the mistakes of their past.

MT. Rushmore and the Lincoln Memorials should stay... But Robert E Lee should join both with equal stature and the entire history of both men should be taught and shared.

Ask any 1000 sheep on any Main Street USA... "What did Lincoln do" and the answer will be "He Freed the Slaves" "He preserved the Union"... while both are true... No one mention the fact that his fanaticism achieved what economics would achieved on it's own without costing 600,000 lives.

And none of them would be aware that the leadership of Lee, not Lincoln, is the reason we've NOT suffered 150 years of Confederate separatist violence.

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Old 05-28-2013, 03:37 AM   #82
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Man kind laid down the rules of surrender long ago. It is really very simple and constant. The victor is allowed to write the history.

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Old 05-28-2013, 03:52 AM   #83
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Man kind laid down the rules of surrender long ago. It is really very simple and constant. The victor is allowed to write the history.
Very true... But were not talking about the agression of vanquished British, Japanese, or Germans... Were talking about our own ancestor... Who justly chose to leave the Union and were destroyed for that choice.

Failing to question the Constitutionality of Lincols orders and recognize the illegal actions he took is akin to justifying them and excuses there use in the future.

The precedent of Lincoln must be put down with the truth of his action in the context of his time.

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:00 AM   #84
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There are no clauses in the rules of surrender. There was descent on both sides during the Civil War of 1861-1865. Lincoln crushed the draft riots in New York. Jefferson Davis had no pity on the Mountain people in the south who did not own slaves.
This was not a romantic trilogy as seen in "Gone With The Wind".

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:12 AM   #85
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There are no clauses in the rules of surrender. There was descent on both sides during the Civil War of 1861-1865. Lincoln crushed the draft riots in New York. Jefferson Davis had no pity on the Mountain people in the south who did not own slaves.
This was not a romantic trilogy as seen in "Gone With The Wind".
There were atrocities on both sides... but none of them would have happened had Lincoln not pushed it to happen and exceeded his authority by waging war to preserve the Union.

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:37 AM   #86
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How do we know what would have happened in 1861? We do know England was poised to move and they had observers on the ground through out the war. The observers were accompanying the southern cause.
We know the mothers of Northern Soldiers wanted freed slaves to join the army. The Freed men were setting around while their sons died. This war was as complex as modern conflicts.

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Old 05-28-2013, 01:06 PM   #87
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Never let reality get in the way of a good story or political advancement.

A century and a half later children (the 10% that actually listen) are taught that the Civil War was fought because Lincoln wanted to free slaves. End of story.

Today on the evening news American people are fed bits of misleading information about today's wars. Then at the end of the 30 min. broadcast there is a story about a little boy being reunited with his long lost dog so they can go away happy and watch Wheel Of Fortune without a care in the world.

Most people prefer to be told what to think. It's much easier. And when faced with overwhelming evidence that what they were taught is wrong they reject the new information because they can't admit they've been wrong for so long. It is a vicious cycle.

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:53 PM   #88
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How do we know what would have happened in 1861? We do know England was poised to move and they had observers on the ground through out the war. The observers were accompanying the southern cause.
We know the mothers of Northern Soldiers wanted freed slaves to join the army. The Freed men were setting around while their sons died. This war was as complex as modern conflicts.
What...

If Lincoln had not preserved the Union the British would have come back in? Really? Is that the argument? Wow.

So what if they had... Naval tech had not yet erased the considerable obstacle of a 3000 mile Atlantic Crossing required to defeat either the US or the Confederacy... and does anyone think that the US and Confederate Governments would not have joined forces in there mutual self interest to defeat any European attack?

To my knowledge, the Brits who were here observing where trying to determine if England should openly support the Confederacy for "favoritism" regarding the Cotton and Tobacco trade "post Civil War"... not if there was an opportunity for them to re-occupy. That ship had sailed with not 1... but 2 stinging defeats and if Americans were willing to kill each other over Liberty, they'd certainly join forces to kill Europeans for the same cause.

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Old 05-28-2013, 05:02 PM   #89
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I was not making an argument. My point is that the Civil War was not a romantic trilogy. There were international considerations. Human servitude fueled the debate as did western expansion.

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Old 05-28-2013, 05:28 PM   #90
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I was not making an argument. My point is that the Civil War was not a romantic trilogy. There were international considerations. Human servitude fueled the debate as did western expansion.
I don't disagree with any of that... and I'm certainly not defending slavery... all I'm saying is that the War was unnecessary and accomplished nothing, in regard to slavery, that another 40 to 60 years of industrialization would not have accomplished peacefully.

Lincoln had a "vision" for America's future that required the States become subservient to the Federal Government... and he established policies to steal an unconstitutional level of power away from the people. He knew full well that his actions would lead to War and he was "comfortable" with the potential losses as long they achieved his objective of Federal Supremacy.

Were his larger intentions good? Was it done to "protect" us from the big bad European threats? To ensure the Federal Government would have the power and resources to meet those threats?

Perhaps? But "intent" is not the "litmus test" for Constitutionality...

...and actions taken by Governments "for the good" of there people, rarely work out as planned.

I too have read the arguments that the US could not have been prepared to deal with Japan and Germany during WWII if not for the consolidation of power within the executive branch and I find the logic to be deeply flawed. The rational for this position rests on the example of our War of Independence from England and the difficulty funding and equipping the Continental Army with the fractured leadership base that existed at the time.

It's like making an argument that horrific medical experiments conducted by the Japanese against occupied peoples during WWII were somehow "worth it" because some medical advancements were made... Excusing poor choices and bad behavior is the hallmark of all that this evil and wrong with the world.

Did Lincoln's actions ultimately make the US a stronger Empire... Yes... but that does not justify the loss of 600,000 American lives and the greater loss of States rights and Civil Liberties through the abuses of the Commerce Clause that followed.

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