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Old 05-27-2013, 01:49 AM   #61
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I don't call Lincoln a war criminal because of the WAY war was waged... I call him a war criminal for waging WAR!

His campaing... his very election... Left the South with 2 choices. They could either face certain economic ruin OR CECEDE from the Union.

They chose the latter, had every right to do so, and were forced to defend themselves from a tyrant who's orders and actions led to the unnecessary deaths of 600,000 Americans and Confederates.

Had Lee not been opposed to invading the North, had Lee been as interested in winning the war as he was in winning the peace, he could have pushed into Washington, captured it, and forced Lincols surrender at sword point.

Lee was far to invested in the War being remembered as the War of Northern Agression, and he was far to confident in his ability to wear Lincoln down.

Lee failed to recognize that history is written by the victors and his failure to see the forest for the trees led to the defeat and financial rape of the south, the sandard of Federal Supremacy we all suffer under today, and the subsequent "education" of hundreds of millions of Americans being brainwashed to see a Tyrant as a Liberator and a Liberator as seditious.

Tack


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Gentleman we clearly have read different histories and must just agree to disagree. I am not a big fan of Lincoln because of some of the things you mentioned, not to mention he gave us the first income tax and the I.R.S. Other things you mentioned I never heard before so I will research them.

I will leave you with the fact that before wars were televised they were waged to be won. You did this by taking away the enemies ability and will to fight on.

We can argue till doomsday about the idea of a legal war. Most say the war started at Ft. Sumpter, but it started in about 1855 in Kansas when pro slavery men flooded in from Missouri to rig the elections as to whether Kansas would be a slave or free state. Everything went down hill from there, mostly because of wackjobs like John Brown.

It took a whole lot of fanatics on both sides to cause this war but to call someone a war criminal for waging war the way wars had been waged throughout history is a bit much.
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:27 AM   #62
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BTW, I have been berated by one of the dim wits for flying my wife's British flag- since the dunce did not know the difference between the Union Jack and the Stars & bars.
LOL

I have this big custom framed artwork in my business office on the wall right behind my desk. Sure enough I heard that a minority woman who worked for me for three years until recently had just started to run around telling anyone who would listen how hurt and uncomfortable she was, and how racist and inappropriate of me to have this prominant "Confederate" flag*.

Someone eventually had to break it to the idiot that she was off by two and a half centuries and just didn't have a case.

*Of course it is the British King's Colours with the English St. George's Cross flag behind it.


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Old 05-27-2013, 02:51 AM   #63
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You Can't Fix Stupid... But you can fire it!


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LOL

I have this big custom framed artwork in my business office on the wall right behind me. Sure enough I heard that a minority woman who worked for me for three years until recently had just started to run around telling anyone who would listen how hurt and uncomfortable she was, and how racist and inappropriate of me to have this prominant Confederate flag.

Someone eventually had to break it to the idiot that she was off by two and a half centuries and just didn't have a case.
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:56 AM   #64
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Question:

Some of y'all hate Lincoln with a passion it seems. What do you feel about our current wars and the man who got us embroiled in them?

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Old 05-27-2013, 03:30 AM   #65
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Question:

Some of y'all hate Lincoln with a passion it seems. What do you feel about our current wars and the man who got us embroiled in them?
Fair Question Trip

Afghanistan was a "just" War as our enemy was using it as a base of operations and the Taliban was harboring them... However... The nation building and occupation BS is BS. It took a few week to run the Taliban out and the notion that we need to stay to win and "deny" the enemy it's use is horse sh!t. No Empire has ever passified that country and we will fail like all those who've proceeded us.

Iraq was horse sh!t from the begging...

In general, I agree with the Big Stick policy of making no distinction between our enemies and Nation States who harbor them but I think it's pretty clear now that Iraq was a "manufactured crisis" and that many in the Bush administration where going to get a second crack at Sadam... Facts be damned.

All that said... It's still undeniable that American leadership removed a brutal dictator and created the worlds first Muslim Democracy... and Sadam had been violating the terms of the Gulf War cease fire so technically, the justification to invade and remove him was already well documented. Where the Bush administration screwed the pooch was in pushing WMD's as the pressing need.

Had they stuck with the repeated UN Inspection Violations and the "potential" threat possed by "possible" WMD's they would have faired much better in the court of public opinion.

Is a Bush a War Criminal? No.

911 justified Afghanistan and Sadam's flaunting disregard for the term of the first cease fire justified Iraq... The Bush folks over sold it on the WMD crap which was a political mistake bit that does not remove the legitimate reasons for going in.

Tack
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Old 05-27-2013, 04:04 AM   #66
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Fair Question Trip

Afghanistan was a "just" War as our enemy was using it as a base of operations and the Taliban was harboring them... However... The nation building and occupation BS is BS. It took a few week to run the Taliban out and the notion that we need to stay to win and "deny" the enemy it's use is horse sh!t. No Empire has ever passified that country and we will fail like all those who've proceeded us.

Iraq was horse sh!t from the begging...

In general, I agree with the Big Stick policy of making no distinction between our enemies and Nation States who harbor them but I think it's pretty clear now that Iraq was a "manufactured crisis" and that many in the Bush administration where going to get a second crack at Sadam... Facts be damned.

All that said... It's still undeniable that American leadership removed a brutal dictator and created the worlds first Muslim Democracy... and Sadam had been violating the terms of the Gulf War cease fire so technically, the justification to invade and remove him was already well documented. Where the Bush administration screwed the pooch was in pushing WMD's as the pressing need.

Had they stuck with the repeated UN Inspection Violations and the "potential" threat possed by "possible" WMD's they would have faired much better in the court of public opinion.

Is a Bush a War Criminal? No.

911 justified Afghanistan and Sadam's flaunting disregard for the term of the first cease fire justified Iraq... The Bush folks over sold it on the WMD crap which was a political mistake bit that does not remove the legitimate reasons for going in.

Tack
When Syria falls I think you'll be surprised by Saddam's WMD unless this Administration covers it up when they give the country to The Muslim Brotherhood.

We know they existed -- we inventoried them in GW1. And they were supposed to be being proved destroyed but weren't. That's one of the reasons we went back.

Personally I'm just concerned for Asma Assad. She has an open invitation to stay with me for a while when she has to flee Damascus!

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Old 05-27-2013, 07:23 AM   #67
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For the most part, I agree with tack. The WMD thing, it's debatable. Saddam did have a history of using them on his people, so it's not too far out there to think that he could of had more. Though, like I said, it's debatable.

Now, you can't really compare Bush and his wars to Lincoln and his. Lincoln was a trader pure and simple. He sacrificed hundreds of thousands of lives all for greed.

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Old 05-27-2013, 02:04 PM   #68
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Bush said, once upon a tine, "Iraqi oil will pay for this war."

Lincoln was a bastard. But he was a bastard that was (in part) trying to keep his agricultural base intact.

What need had we to go into another country on the other side of the world, if not ultimately for greed?

I'm a bit of an isolationist. I couldn't give a **** less what some tin pot dictator does to his own people over there. I want to know (and I want the "right people" here to know), so that we can watch, learn, and prevent, but I honestly don't see the need to spend so many American lives telling other people how to live when we have problems at home.

To consider Bush and his wars to be a lesser evil than Lincoln's war, I don't understand. I don't understand this concept at all.

We were just, and right, in attacking the Taliban and Al Queda in Afghanistan. But, as was already mentioned, the fact that we're still there, I think, is utter bull ****. We were right and just in invading Pakistan to kill Osama. And what happened? Mission completed, GTFO. That's exactly what needs to happen now.

I just really fail to see how Lincoln's war was more unjust than Bush's war.

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Old 05-27-2013, 02:29 PM   #69
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OK, so, the Lost Cause lesson for today is:

  • Lincoln: evil incarnate
  • Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait, The Taliban, Al Queda: what-ever!

Say fellas, isn't NASCAR on the television box!?
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:35 PM   #70
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OK, so, the Lost Cause lesson for today is:
[*]Lincoln: evil incarnate[*]Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait, The Taliban, Al Queda: what-ever!


Say fellas, isn't NASCAR on the television box!?
1800 dammit. Get it together man, jeez...
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