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Old 05-24-2013, 11:43 PM   #51
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Texaswoodworker,

I believe the last flag you posted was known as the "Bonnie Blue Flag".
My ancestors fought under that flag.
A Captain with the 3rd Reg S.C. volunteers on my mothers side and also in the same regiment 2 privates on my fathers side.
All came home to a completely different world but adapted and never forgot and my grandfather told me stories that were passed down to him about ,as he put it,"the late unpleasantness". .
There's a book called Kershaw's Brigade which tells a whole lot about what occurred with the S.C. soldiers.

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Old 05-25-2013, 01:04 AM   #52
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Seems another feller or two led a couple of stallions to water who have been raised to die of thirst.

I ain't their pappy and if they can type they should be able to read too. Shelby Foote is recognized as being a little biased but it'd be a start and a damn sight better than old wives tales. At least until they see how many pages his trilogy is and that it has no pictures to speak of, then I would hazard to guess all bets are off.

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Old 05-25-2013, 06:00 AM   #53
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Seems another feller or two led a couple of stallions to water who have been raised to die of thirst.

I ain't their pappy and if they can type they should be able to read too. Shelby Foote is recognized as being a little biased but it'd be a start and a damn sight better than old wives tales. At least until they see how many pages his trilogy is and that it has no pictures to speak of, then I would hazard to guess all bets are off.
I have his trilogy on my shelf, haven't got all the way through the first volume yet. I don't have much time to read anymore other than the books on tape or cd I listen to in the truck. I have found that some of them I have to listen to 2 or 3 times times to get everything. When driving you can't devote your full attention to the book like you can in your recliner.

As I said earlier I am currently listening to "Battle Cry of Freedom" by James McPherson. Another good one is "Voices of the Storm" but I can't remember the author.

Shelby Foote does have one of my all time favorite quotes though. I am paraphrasing a little bit, but his comment was something like " the Civil War
turned the U.S. into an 'is' " by this he meant before the war people said "the United States are going to do X" meaning a group of states. After the war people said "the United States is going to do X" meaning a single entitiy rather than a group.
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Old 05-25-2013, 12:25 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F4U

I have his trilogy on my shelf, haven't got all the way through the first volume yet. I don't have much time to read anymore other than the books on tape or cd I listen to in the truck. I have found that some of them I have to listen to 2 or 3 times times to get everything. When driving you can't devote your full attention to the book like you can in your recliner.

As I said earlier I am currently listening to "Battle Cry of Freedom" by James McPherson. Another good one is "Voices of the Storm" but I can't remember the author.

Shelby Foote does have one of my all time favorite quotes though. I am paraphrasing a little bit, but his comment was something like " the Civil War
turned the U.S. into an 'is' " by this he meant before the war people said "the United States are going to do X" meaning a group of states. After the war people said "the United States is going to do X" meaning a single entitiy rather than a group.
That quote really makes you think. Which would be a better place to live "are" or "is"? I guess we'll never know but an interesting thought.
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Old 05-25-2013, 07:00 PM   #55
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McPherson (pronounced McFURson), whom I've met several times and has spoken at my Civil War Rountable (yes, I am an officer of a literary group) on a couple of occasions has his work "Battle Cry of Freedom" generally recognized as the single best volume on the Civil War today. It is THE book to get if you are to have, to read, only one. He actually provides more background leading to the war which I think my brothers here especially need.

Foote, on the other hand, is a little more artistic writer. His work is more storytelling from a somewhat Southern perspective. Also paraphrasing, yes, he said "before the Civil War it was 'the United States are'; after the Civil War it was 'the United States is'." I too reflect sadly upon the implied impact to Federalism, but I also recognize and acknowledge its roots. Foote's second and third volumes of the long The Civil War: A Narrative are most exciting...

Another classic read I cannot recommend enough is Bruce Catton's trilogy The Army of the Potomac.

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Old 05-25-2013, 08:14 PM   #56
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On the topic of war criminals... Let's not forget the bloodiest war criminal North America ever produced... Abraham Lincoln!

Did the South Leave the Union over Slavey... Yes
Did the South Leave the Union over States Rights... Yes

You can't judge Southern Slavery circa 1860 through the lens of 2013.

You can not ignore that fact that Lincoln having won the White House in a 3 way race with less that 30% of the vote chose to put his fanaticism ahead of the Countries interest by enacting policies he knew would upset the Missouri Compromise passed in 1820 specifically to avoid war beetwen Free and Slave states.

Lincoln was a terrorist and murderer who unfortunately triumphed because of Lee's Tactical error at Gettysburg. By the time that battle ensued it should have been abundantly clear to Lee that wearing down the North's will to fight was not going to happen. What he should have done, instead of charging his men into entrenched Union positions, is turned them around, marched them straight into DC, burned it to the ground, taken Lincols head, and demanded that the Congress of the United States surrender.

Slavery via the industrial revolution, would have become financial unsustainable in the next 40 years anyway... Lincolns temperament and activist nature caused 600,000 unnecessary deaths, split the nation with a rift that is still felt today, and firmly established Federal supremacy which is the root cause of most of our current problems.

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Originally Posted by HockaLouis View Post
Birch, it's obvious you don't even know what "the" confederate flag is you claim you proudly fly. I can recommend a good single book if you'd like to learn about the US Civil War.

As for the igniting cause, ask the Confederate States -- most of THEM cited slavery as it in their articles of cecession. There were definitely regional differences -- most obvious and critical to the South was they wanted to separate to KEEP slavery they knew would inevitably be voted away. They were afraid. Period. And they started a shooting war, insurrection, a rebellion, killing to do it.

There is no disputing this unless you simply don't know history and somehow feel compelled to tie yourself into evil blindly per The Lost Cause nonsense.

By the way, that all has little to do with the rank and file soldiers on either side. And some officers. The North would have gladly traded Hooker, Burnside and McLellan, the latter twice, for Lee.
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Old 05-26-2013, 05:09 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
On the topic of war criminals... Let's not forget the bloodiest war criminal North America ever produced... Abraham Lincoln!

Did the South Leave the Union over Slavey... Yes
Did the South Leave the Union over States Rights... Yes

You can't judge Southern Slavery circa 1860 through the lens of 2013.

You can not ignore that fact that Lincoln having won the White House in a 3 way race with less that 30% of the vote chose to put his fanaticism ahead of the Countries interest by enacting policies he knew would upset the Missouri Compromise passed in 1820 specifically to avoid war beetwen Free and Slave states.

Lincoln was a terrorist and murderer who unfortunately triumphed because of Lee's Tactical error at Gettysburg. By the time that battle ensued it should have been abundantly clear to Lee that wearing down the North's will to fight was not going to happen. What he should have done, instead of charging his men into entrenched Union positions, is turned them around, marched them straight into DC, burned it to the ground, taken Lincols head, and demanded that the Congress of the United States surrender.

Slavery via the industrial revolution, would have become financial unsustainable in the next 40 years anyway... Lincolns temperament and activist nature caused 600,000 unnecessary deaths, split the nation with a rift that is still felt today, and firmly established Federal supremacy which is the root cause of most of our current problems.

Tack
Some of your points are dead on but your conclusion about Lincoln as a war criminal is off by a good bit I think.

The South left the Union for those reasons and more, including tariffs.

You absolutely cannot judge slavery by todays standards as you said because we were brought up to think it an evil. If we were born in 1840 in the deep south we would have been brought up to believe it was a positive good. Very few people escape their early childhood teachings.

Lee made more than one tactical error at Gettysburg and at least one strategic one. But the south was never going to defeat the norths ability to wage an industrial war by the summer of 1863, anymore than Hitler was going to defeat "Rosie the Riveter" in the long run.

As for upsetting the Missouri Compromise, that was long gone before he ever took office. The Compromise of 1850, the Kansas/Nebraska act, and the Dred Scott decision put that away. If I remember right part of the Dred Scott Decision stated that congress did not have the power to dictate slavery in the territories, which was what the Missouri Compromise was all about.

As for Lincolns "radical abolitionism" he was almost dragged kicking and screaming to it. His initial position was that it could not survive economically over the long term if it was contained in the south. When he finally came around to it, the Emancipation Proclamation only applied to slaves in states that were " in armed revolt against the U.S." This left all of the slaves in Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri still slaves until the the constitutional amendment abolishing slavery was ratified. While radical to the slaveholders, this was kissing the ass of the slaveholders of the border states to the real radicals.

As for your last point about the industrial revolution you may be right but I am not completely convinced. When business is slow you lay off workers, but if your workers are slaves you can't really lay them off. Even if business is slow you have to feed and cloth them. With free workers you just lay them off and you are done till work picks up. But if you business is somewhat recession proof the easily predictable labor costs of slaves would be a major advantage.
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Old 05-26-2013, 08:49 AM   #58
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Some of your points are dead on but your conclusion about Lincoln as a war criminal is off by a good bit I think.

The South left the Union for those reasons and more, including tariffs.

You absolutely cannot judge slavery by todays standards as you said because we were brought up to think it an evil. If we were born in 1840 in the deep south we would have been brought up to believe it was a positive good. Very few people escape their early childhood teachings.

Lee made more than one tactical error at Gettysburg and at least one strategic one. But the south was never going to defeat the norths ability to wage an industrial war by the summer of 1863, anymore than Hitler was going to defeat "Rosie the Riveter" in the long run.

As for upsetting the Missouri Compromise, that was long gone before he ever took office. The Compromise of 1850, the Kansas/Nebraska act, and the Dred Scott decision put that away. If I remember right part of the Dred Scott Decision stated that congress did not have the power to dictate slavery in the territories, which was what the Missouri Compromise was all about.

As for Lincolns "radical abolitionism" he was almost dragged kicking and screaming to it. His initial position was that it could not survive economically over the long term if it was contained in the south. When he finally came around to it, the Emancipation Proclamation only applied to slaves in states that were " in armed revolt against the U.S." This left all of the slaves in Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri still slaves until the the constitutional amendment abolishing slavery was ratified. While radical to the slaveholders, this was kissing the ass of the slaveholders of the border states to the real radicals.

As for your last point about the industrial revolution you may be right but I am not completely convinced. When business is slow you lay off workers, but if your workers are slaves you can't really lay them off. Even if business is slow you have to feed and cloth them. With free workers you just lay them off and you are done till work picks up. But if you business is somewhat recession proof the easily predictable labor costs of slaves would be a major advantage.
Your off about the South not being able to win. Had Lee won at Gettysburg, Confederate troops would have been marched straight to D.C. Kind of hard to win a war when the majority of your Federal Government is being held prisoner.

As for Lincoln, he should have been tried and hung as a criminal.

He started a war fueled by only greed, and tried to disguise it as a moral war,

He KNEW what he was doing was wrong.

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Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit.
-- Abraham Lincoln January 12, 1848
Lincoln violated the Constitution time and time again.

He ordered the military blockade of Southern ports. An act of WAR, and a right reserved by the Constitution for CONGRESS, not the President.

Dozens of Newspapers that spoke out against the Northern cause were shut down. That's a clear violation of the 1st Amendment.

Lincoln had an Ohio Congressmen (Clement Vallandigham) arrested and tried for speaking out against him, and showing sympathy for the South's War of Independence. That's a clear violation of the 1st Amendment.

Lincoln also had US Congressman Henry May (Maryland) arrested.

Lincoln illegally suspended the writ of Habeas Corpus, allowing American citizens in Maryland to be locked up indefinitely without the opportunity of a trial. He did this because there was a strong secession movement growing, and Maryland had a very good chance of becoming part of the Confederate States of America. This would have caused Washington D.C the be completely surrounded.

Roger Taney, Chief Justice of the US, and sitting judge for the Circuit Court for Maryland, ruled that Lincoln's suspension of the Writ of Habeas Corpus was illegal, and Unconstitutional. Lincoln personally signed the arrest warrant to have him arrested.

Lincoln allowed the use of water torture against prisoners. A violation of the 8th Amendment.

On April 25 1861, Lincoln sent a letter to General Winfield Scott giving him permission to bomb Maryland's cities. He did this because it looked like there was still a chance that Maryland would secede.

Lincoln violated the 2nd Amendment when he sent Union troops to Maryland to confiscate weapons.

ARTICLE III, SECTION III OF THE US CONSTITUTION

Quote:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
Lincoln violated this law when he started the war.

Lincoln allowed the taking of private property for public use without compensation. A clear violation of the 5th Amendment.

Lincoln also had most of the Maryland state legislature, Mayor of Baltimore, most of the Baltimore city council, the police commissioner of Baltimore, and thousand of Maryland citizens arrested and held without trial. This really pissed off the residents of Maryland. One of these pissed off residences happened to go by the name Booth.

Lincoln's Unconstitutional war also caused the death of 50,000 Southern CIVILIANS.
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Bingo...

The fact that this man has a memorial is the reason I've never and will never visit DC.

It's offensive on the level of Hitler. When other nations topple or "otherwise" remove a dictator, they destroy any effigies to that Dictator. We... On the other hand, build effigies and rewrite history to cannonize the worst killer we've ever produced.

Very disturbing.

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Originally Posted by texaswoodworker View Post
Your off about the South not being able to win. Had Lee won at Gettysburg, Confederate troops would have been marched straight to D.C. Kind of hard to win a war when the majority of your Federal Government is being held prisoner.

As for Lincoln, he should have been tried and hung as a criminal.

He started a war fueled by only greed, and tried to disguise it as a moral war,

He KNEW what he was doing was wrong.



Lincoln violated the Constitution time and time again.

He ordered the military blockade of Southern ports. An act of WAR, and a right reserved by the Constitution for CONGRESS, not the President.

Dozens of Newspapers that spoke out against the Northern cause were shut down. That's a clear violation of the 1st Amendment.

Lincoln had an Ohio Congressmen (Clement Vallandigham) arrested and tried for speaking out against him, and showing sympathy for the South's war of Independence. That's a clear violation of the 1st Amendment.

Lincoln also had US Congressman Henry May (Maryland) arrested.

Lincoln illegally suspended the writ of Habeas Corpus, allowing American citizens in Maryland to be locked up indefinitely without the opportunity of a trial. He did this because there was a strong secession movement growing, and Maryland had a very good chance of becoming part of the Confederate States of America. This would have caused Washington D.C the be completely surrounded.

Roger Taney, Chief Justice of the US, and sitting judge for the Circuit Court for Maryland, ruled that Lincoln's suspension of the Writ of Habeas Corpus was illegal, and Unconstitutional. Lincoln personally signed the arrest warrant to have him arrested.

Lincoln allowed the use of water torture against prisoners. A violation of the 8th Amendment.

On April 25 1861, Lincoln sent a letter to General Winfield Scott giving him permission to bomb Maryland's cities. He did this because it looked like there was still a chance that Maryland would secede.

Lincoln violated the 2nd Amendment when he sent Union troops to Maryland to confiscate weapons.

ARTICLE III, SECTION III OF THE US CONSTITUTION



Lincoln violated this law when he started the war.

Lincoln allowed the taking of private property for public use without compensation. A clear violation of the 5th Amendment.

Lincoln also had most of the Maryland state legislature, Mayor of Baltimore, most of the Baltimore city council, the police commissioner of Baltimore, and thousand of Maryland citizens arrested and held without trial. This really pissed off the residents of Maryland. One of these pissed off residences happened to go by the name Booth.

Lincoln's Unconstitutional war also caused the death of 50,000 Southern CIVILIANS.
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Old 05-27-2013, 12:36 AM   #60
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Gentleman we clearly have read different histories and must just agree to disagree. I am not a big fan of Lincoln because of some of the things you mentioned, not to mention he gave us the first income tax and the I.R.S. Other things you mentioned I never heard before so I will research them.

I will leave you with the fact that before wars were televised they were waged to be won. You did this by taking away the enemies ability and will to fight on.

We can argue till doomsday about the idea of a legal war. Most say the war started at Ft. Sumpter, but it started in about 1855 in Kansas when pro slavery men flooded in from Missouri to rig the elections as to whether Kansas would be a slave or free state. Everything went down hill from there, mostly because of wackjobs like John Brown.

It took a whole lot of fanatics on both sides to cause this war but to call someone a war criminal for waging war the way wars had been waged throughout history is a bit much.

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