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Old 05-29-2013, 11:03 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post

IFC... I do not disagree that either the French or English Navies assisting the Confederates would have changed the course of the war... especially in the early years of the conflict where Lincoln could not buy a victory.

Someone, I think maybe NS had insinuated that "preserving" the Union was necessary to dissuade future aggression from the European powers... I was making the point that "if not" for the war of "northern aggression"... had the Confederacy been allowed to go it's own way "peaceful"... the two American Nations, US and CS, would have joined forced to defeat any future European threat.

Tack
Thanks for clarifying I agree with your point.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:07 PM   #102
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Lets look at a few things regarding the slavery issue. The Souths main export was cotton purchased primarily by Great Britain. Slavery was outlawed in all British territories, so it stands to reason that in order to maintain good foreign relations with European partners, slavery would have likely died out in the South eventually even without a war.
I remember reading that any Southerner who owned 50 slaves was exempt from the draft. Most of the soldiers in the Confederate Army were to poor to own 5, let alone 50 slaves.
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Old 03-22-2014, 05:16 AM   #103
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The Emancipation Proclamation did not free any slaves because it applied only to areas under Confederate control , places where the union had no means for freeing slaves . Lincoln had no authority to free slaves held in northern states, so naturally the Proclamation did not apply to union-held territory .
What the Proclamation did was to sound the death knell for slavery . Once declared free, the slaves of the South couldn't be kept in slavery if the Union won . It followed that northern slaves would be freed as well .
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Old 03-22-2014, 12:10 PM   #104
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The Emancipation Proclamation did not free any slaves because it applied only to areas under Confederate control , places where the union had no means for freeing slaves . Lincoln had no authority to free slaves held in northern states, so naturally the Proclamation did not apply to union-held territory .
What the Proclamation did was to sound the death knell for slavery . Once declared free, the slaves of the South couldn't be kept in slavery if the Union won . It followed that northern slaves would be freed as well .
Shhhhhhh! Be quiet!!


People aren't supposed to know there were Northern slave states.


Its one of the many historical facts that has been eliminated from the modern educational system.


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Old 03-22-2014, 10:43 PM   #105
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Slavery should have been abolished much earlier.

One of the large slave holders owned plantations in the south but lived in the north. After gambling and frittering away his fortune; Pierce M. Butler sold slaves, hundreds of slaves, 436 in all. Slaves were auctioned off over a period of two rainy days.

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In early March 1859 an enormous slave action took place at the Race Course three miles outside Savannah, Georgia. Four hundred thirty-six slaves were to be put on the auction block including men, women, children and infants. Word of the sale had spread through the South for weeks, drawing potential buyers from North and South Carolina, Virginia, Georgia, Alabama and Louisiana. All of Savannah's available hotel rooms and any other lodging spaces were quickly appropriated by
the influx of visitors. In the days running up to the auction, daily excursions were made from the city to the Race Course to inspect, evaluate and determine an appropriate bid for the human merchandise on display.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/slaveauction.htm

Names of the slaves sold:

http://www.glynngen.com/slaverec/butler.htm


Numerous of my relatives served in the Confederate army during the Civil War: None owned slaves. My G-Grandfather and his brothers joined the Confederate army after the US army destroyed their coke ovens in what is now WV. Several of of my relatives were killed in that war. My G-Grandfather was a good soldier and a mean so and so; he killed a few dozen federal soldiers.

In their honor i belong to the Sons of Confederate Veterans post in Winchester, VA.

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Old 03-23-2014, 02:16 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Shootnscoot View Post
Lets look at a few things regarding the slavery issue. The Souths main export was cotton purchased primarily by Great Britain. Slavery was outlawed in all British territories, so it stands to reason that in order to maintain good foreign relations with European partners, slavery would have likely died out in the South eventually even without a war.
Doubt it. In the Old South slavery was not a merely a policy or ideology. It was identity. Going against it on account of foreign relations would have caused calamity and probably violence. More likely the slavery would have evolved into brutal apartheid, perhaps a forced deportation to Africa. In time the segregated Confederacy would have become a low hanging fruit for both the Nazis and the Communists. The South was fortunate to lose the civil war as it was.

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Old 03-23-2014, 02:14 PM   #107
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The most dangerous work like draining malarial swamps and herding cotton bales down steep slopes to the sea for loading on ships was seldom done by slaves. Slaves were too valuable for that kind of work: Plantation owners hired Irish immigrants for that stuff.
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:29 PM   #108
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The most dangerous work like draining malarial swamps and herding cotton bales down steep slopes to the sea for loading on ships was seldom done by slaves. Slaves were too valuable for that kind of work: Plantation owners hired Irish immigrants for that stuff.
An accurate point. Most Southerners saw red at the mere mentioning of abolition, like we do when someone suggests we give up guns and automobiles. Of course rifles are not people, but to the slave owners they were possessions, just the same. They weren't going to surrender what "rightfully" belonged to them.
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:19 PM   #109
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An accurate point. Most Southerners saw red at the mere mentioning of abolition, like we do when someone suggests we give up guns and automobiles. Of course rifles are not people, but to the slave owners they were possessions, just the same. They weren't going to surrender what "rightfully" belonged to them.
Most Southerners were too poor to own slaves. Do you think they really cared if the rich guys got to keep their slaves or not? Hell no they didn't. They were fighting for their land, and their rights. Most seem to forget that slavery was only one of many issues that caused the Civil War.

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When asked by a group of Yankee soldiers why he was fighting, the Rebel replied, "I'm fighting because you're down here"
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Old 03-23-2014, 08:17 PM   #110
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Agree, had 4 ancestors that fought with the Southern side. 1 with the 1st S.C. Cavalry and 3 with Kershaw's brigade.
None owned slaves and barely had any land but when the call came they joined and all came back home.
There were many reasons besides slaves .
Here's some.

Many white Confederate soldiers stated reasons other than slavery as motivations for enlisting. After the secession of the state of Virginia, "Benjamin W. Jones found that 'the determination to resist invasion-the first and most sacred duty of a free people-became general, if not universal'". Historian William C. Davis then stated, "that determination sent him into the army, and thousands more with him".4 Carlton McCarthy wrote in his memoir with some poetic prose, that the Southerner "dared not refuse to hear the call to arms, so plain was the duty and so urgent the call. His brethren and friends were answering the bugle-call and the sound of the drum," and "to stay was dishonor and shame"!5 Defense of the home and duty with honor seemed to be very strong primary reasons for enlisting for the average Confederate soldier. McCarthy's quote points out another factor as well. The power of one's peers.

Popular pressure was a very strong factor for enlisting to fight for the Confederacy (as well as the Union). Thousands of persons indifferent to enlisting, and even many who were openly opposed to it, were swept like a wave into the ranks in 1861 by the tremendous force of popular pressure.6

The defense of the women of the South was another strong motivating factor for many white Southern males. The women offered thanks to the men who enlisted "but turned with coolest disdain from those who were reluctant to come forward in defense of Southern womanhood".7

But again many volunteered not from any great enthusiasm, but simply because enlistment was the trendy thing to do .8 Therefore, peer pressure had the strongest influence. All of these reasons seem to have motivated members of the yeoman class to enlist, because most of them viewed the defense of slavery as "to protect the fortunes and property of a leisured upper-class that most (of them) looked upon with hatred, envy and contempt".9

The yeoman class had no slaves to fight for, they had some property, their families, and their native states. They also had something else as their property to protect, and that "was their white skins which put them on a plane of civil equality with slave holders and far above those who did not possess that property," as stated by Princeton University historian, James M. McPherson.10 Since many could not read or write very well (or at all), they were not given much of a chance to defend themselves to later generations from statements like Dr. McPherson's. It should be stated as fact that racism was very strong at that time, in the North as well as the South. It was simply the pattern of thought in the 1800s that the white class was superior, even though it was not true.

One motivation that has been around since recorded time (and certainly even before then), was the want for adventure.11 It is doubtful that particular motivation was that strong after being in the storm of combat. War has never been the romantic event that has been portrayed in writings, only a "living hell."

Many high-ranking Confederates showed reasons for enlisting other than slavery. The examples consist of generals (or future generals). Robert E. Lee believed in neither slavery nor secession, but would fight for his old Virginia.12 Ambrose Powell Hill, better known as A.P. Hill, chose to fight for the defense of his state, Virginia, even thought he was deeply opposed to slavery.13 John C. Breckenridge, of Kentucky (a boarder state), a one-time Vice-President of the United States, sided with the Confederacy primarily for his home-state's self-defense from the North.14 The individual motivations are endless.

Not only did Southerners and "boarder-staters" enlist (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland and Delaware) to fight for the Confederacy, but so did Northerners themselves!15 Their motivations are varied (to be sure), but it can be speculated that economic or family ties had something to do with this phenomenon. Ideology and sympathy for "the cause" also had influence on these men to serve with what their fellow Northerners called "the enemy."

From this article.

http://www.wvculture.org/history/wvhs1404.html
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Last edited by Threetango; 03-23-2014 at 08:40 PM. Reason: correction
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