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Old 05-28-2013, 05:40 PM   #91
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Lincoln did not elect himself. It seems he was elected by a majority of voters. Human servitude had been a very unpopular issue for a very long time. Humm? Just 60 more years of slavery and everything would have been OK? If you study the arguments of the day on the floor of congress it was about slavery.

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Old 05-28-2013, 05:49 PM   #92
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Lincoln did not elect himself. It seems he was elected by a majority of voters. Human servitude had been a very unpopular issue for a very long time. Humm? Just 60 more years of slavery and everything would have been OK? If you study the arguments of the day on the floor of congress it was about slavery.
Lincoln carried slightly more than 30% of the vote in a hotly contested (3) way race... He had ZERO mandate for his actions... Proven by the fact that half the Union CHOSE to leave it rather than lay down for his silly ass.

...the debates on the floor of Congress were about Slavery... Yep... and the Healthcare Debate was about Healthcare too... Right?

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Old 05-28-2013, 08:51 PM   #93
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Lincoln was elected President. I don't know what Obama care has to do with the election of 1860? The debate over Human bondage was a very prolonged and painful issue even before the Nation was founded. There is simply no way to justify this practice of human servitude weather it was a regional issue or not.
The war may have hinged on many issues but it was slavery that clearly ended in armed conflict. I really doubt 60 more years of human bondage would have done that much good? Allowing slaves in America until 1900, would that have been a good thing? Good luck in your studies of slavery and armed conflicts.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:11 PM   #94
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As bad as the Civil war was, it was necessary. It ended the institution of slavery which should have never begun in the US in the first place. Both the Northern and Southern leaders were motivated by economics more so than anything else, but for everyone else it got really blurry as to who was fighting and dying for what. Robert E. Lee was torn as to what to do and eventually decided to side with his home state. Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union at any cost. Everyone had their own motivations. Unfortunately we lost a lot more than just the lives of our ancestors in the Civil War. The Union will never be what it once was because the states will never again have the rights they once did. I guess I blame everyone in that time period for that. I blame the leaders in the South for trying to preserve a horrible institution. They fought for a worthy thing which was states rights, but they wanted those rights to serve their own miserable selfish ends. I blame the Northern leaders for ignoring the Constitution and forgetting what the purpose of the Union was all along. The ends do not justify the means.

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Old 05-28-2013, 11:29 PM   #95
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Lincoln was elected President. I don't know what Obama care has to do with the election of 1860? The debate over Human bondage was a very prolonged and painful issue even before the Nation was founded. There is simply no way to justify this practice of human servitude weather it was a regional issue or not.
The war may have hinged on many issues but it was slavery that clearly ended in armed conflict. I really doubt 60 more years of human bondage would have done that much good? Allowing slaves in America until 1900, would that have been a good thing? Good luck in your studies of slavery and armed conflicts.
I've never defended or championed the practice of slavery...

I've simply pointed out that as horrible as it was... allowing it to die of natural causes, "economics", would have been preferable to the War that cost 600,000 American lives, obliterated States Rights, and opened the door for the dismantling of everyones Civil Liberties.

All of that is of course... my opinion... and opinions vary... but put Lincoln's actions into a modern context of ohh say... The Obama Justice department targeting reporters... Or running Illegal guns to Mexico... Or using the IRS to delay or intimidate political dissidents....

...you see where I'm going with this, and why I think it's important to educate people on the "means" used by Lincoln rather that simply focusing on the "ends" as all us good school children were taught to do?

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Old 05-28-2013, 11:41 PM   #96
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Tackleberry, can you tell us what CW history books you have ever read please?

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Old 05-29-2013, 12:03 AM   #97
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martial law then under Lincoln and I would seem to bet martial law in the near future under our president <coincidence>

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Old 05-29-2013, 07:21 PM   #98
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Tackleberry, can you tell us what CW history books you have ever read please?
I can't speak for tack as far as where he gets his knowledge, but I can tell you most of it is dead on accurate.

Incase your wonder where I get my knowledge of the Civil War, I got it from reading numerous history books throughout school and college, doing a few research papers over it, researching on my own just because I wanted too (I find the Civil War interesting), watching several educational shows over it, and looking into several aspects of it and checking facts/claims I found, visiting several of the battlefields, and numerous museums.
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Old 05-29-2013, 10:27 PM   #99
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What...

If Lincoln had not preserved the Union the British would have come back in? Really? Is that the argument? Wow.

So what if they had... Naval tech had not yet erased the considerable obstacle of a 3000 mile Atlantic Crossing required to defeat either the US or the Confederacy... and does anyone think that the US and Confederate Governments would not have joined forces in there mutual self interest to defeat any European attack?

To my knowledge, the Brits who were here observing where trying to determine if England should openly support the Confederacy for "favoritism" regarding the Cotton and Tobacco trade "post Civil War"... not if there was an opportunity for them to re-occupy. That ship had sailed with not 1... but 2 stinging defeats and if Americans were willing to kill each other over Liberty, they'd certainly join forces to kill Europeans for the same cause.

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The British elite favored the confederacy and decided not to support them after they figured the cost of fighting was not worth the meager gains. We were also dependent on grain supply from America, and had built a good relationship particularly around trade. In fact the British public had great support for Lincoln.

The confederacy took the view that limiting cotton supply to England which we where depending on would coerce england and France to fight on their side. Lincoln pointed out that supporting the confederacy would be an act of war and set a dangerous president to our own wantaway nation states ie scotland ,wales, ni etc.

The government took a dim view of the confederacy tactics although they supplied them with food and ammo, and building ship's for them , which we had to pay reparations for after the war

All out war nearly broke out after the trent affair troops were sent to the Canadian border, however lincon apologised and England remained neutral.

Tack, all out war with england and France on the confederate side would have had a different outcome,
Were not talking about sending a few troops to quell an uprising .
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Old 05-29-2013, 10:51 PM   #100
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The British elite favored the confederacy and decided not to support them after they figured the cost of fighting was not worth the meager gains. We were also dependent on grain supply from America, and had built a good relationship particularly around trade. In fact the British public had great support for Lincoln.

The confederacy took the view that limiting cotton supply to England which we where depending on would coerce england and France to fight on their side. Lincoln pointed out that supporting the confederacy would be an act of war and set a dangerous president to our own wantaway nation states ie scotland ,wales, ni etc.

The government took a dim view of the confederacy tactics although they supplied them with food and ammo, and building ship's for them , which we had to pay reparations for after the war

All out war nearly broke out after the trent affair troops were sent to the Canadian border, however lincon apologised and England remained neutral.

Tack, all out war with england and France on the confederate side would have had a different outcome,
Were not talking about sending a few troops to quell an uprising .
IFC... I do not disagree that either the French or English Navies assisting the Confederates would have changed the course of the war... especially in the early years of the conflict where Lincoln could not buy a victory.

Someone, I think maybe NS had insinuated that "preserving" the Union was necessary to dissuade future aggression from the European powers... I was making the point that "if not" for the war of "northern aggression"... had the Confederacy been allowed to go it's own way "peaceful"... the two American Nations, US and CS, would have joined forced to defeat any future European threat.

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